Nearly 3 years of daughter not sleeping through

[Peebleneeb]

Hi,

I’m at wits end with no clue how to improve my daughters sleep and desperately need help or advice.

For background my daughter was born in March 22 extremely premature at 24 weeks weighing just 1lb. We spent 4 months in 3 different NICUs across the UK getting her better and nearly lost her twice (as in were told she was dying). I’m telling you this as I’m not sure if this could be part of why she is a bad sleeper- or if it’s why maybe we created sleep crutches and completely avoided (and don’t like the idea of) sleep training of any kind. Because she’s so precious.

So to the sleep issue… My husband and I are absolutely zombies because my daughter is now nearly 3 (in a couple months) and still wakes up at least twice a night screaming for me. She has never been a good sleeper- has had us up anywhere between 1-10 times a night since she was born- now it’s mostly twice a night with a hellish bedtime. She has a nap midday-1.30pm ish sometimes 2pm each day but I’ve been trying to cap it (she is super grumpy when I cap it though so finding it hard). She goes to bed at 7.30pm/8pm and usually wakes for the final time anytime between 6-7am.

She takes anywhere between 20 minutes to an hour to get to bed and insists we stroke her hair or hold her hand. She has white noise machine (has always had this), a very dim night light on, is still in a cot bed with rails up as doesn’t and can’t climb out yet, has a duvet and pillow now but in the past has had sleep sacks. We have the exact same bed time routine and have for as long as I can remember- it’s milk, brush teeth, put pull ups on (she is potty trained during day now), read 1/2 books, put in bed and then I lie next to her until she’s asleep. I didn’t always lie next to her - when she was younger I could put her down stroke her head a bit and then walk out after 5 mins but she started screaming when I left so the only fix was to lie with her. It worked for awhile but now she wants us to stroke her hair too and screams and screams like she’s being murdered if we don’t, or if we leave. I am losing my fucking mind!!!

We are so kind and gentle with her but I hold firm boundaries in day to day life so I’m not a pushover- except for when she screams like that at bedtime and at night as I can’t bear it. I do most bedtimes and wake ups but daddy does a few as I work early shifts half the week (4am alarm). We have tried: turning off white noise, turning off night light, turning on brighter lamp, singing, reading to her while in bed, just walking out (lolllll nope), let her cry max 5 mins then go in (can’t cope any longer as she REALLY screams), just talking to her and asking her to go back to sleep if she wakes in the night, asking her if anything is frightening her and why she wakes up (she doesn’t know).

Is this unusual? What can I do? I can’t do this any more I’m going insane!

Thank you in advance ❤️

Tbh I’m in the middle camp here. I think all the squawking about boundaries is nonsense but equally I’m not sure I’d say it’s normal either. I think kids can get into habits and it can be difficult to change them past a certain point.

My eldest is 6 and has only just started consistently sleeping through the night. Youngest is 4 and wakes anything from 1 to 10 times a night still. I would suggest dropping the nap, as grumpy as she may seem initially it may help.
Would you consider co-sleeping? It was a lifesaver with my eldest and meant we all had amazing sleep. My youngest is the biggest fidget in the world so doesn't work for him but we do occasionally do it. I've now got a mattress in his room and have been sleeping in there for the last few weeks. Wake ups are much less frequent now and I am hoping in a few more weeks he may sleep through for the first time ever 🤞

OP has explained a few times why co sleeping doesn’t work for them.

@Yourethebeerthief there's advice and then there's making people feel terrible.

Another person has also recognised you from my thread and said that they really felt for me with how you spoke to me, whereas you've been rude and unpleasant to me yet again (wagging finger / rude tone in general) which I think speaks volumes. You could've apologised for causing me upset but you didn't.

I really feel for you as you seem to get some kind of buzz out of giving people a kicking online. I hope you're ok and I really hope I never reach that stage, sending you some support x

My daughter was a poor sleeper. She didn’t sleep through (woke at least 4-5 times a night) until she was 3.5. But there was such a quick transition when she finally learnt how to sleep.

Things that helped us:

• leaving radio 4 playing all night
• having a lights projector in her room that she could control
• not staying with her to go to sleep but instead banging and crashing around on the landing outside so she could hear us

It turns out she sleeps best in a noisy, light environment. That’s where we’d been going wrong!

My advice is to try anything and everything!

@nevercooked thank you but I am honestly ok. I just find it better to put stuff like that on hide than dwell on it. Thanks though.

I see your point on this thread, I'm sure the op will find it helpful/ reassuring. Apart from a tiny percentage it's been a useful thread overall and I like that mine and op's kids were both born in the same month! So many similarities and the whole thing has made me feel less alone.

I wouldn’t say this is normal, but it is common. Unfortunately it is really hard to resolve at this age.

What does she eat and drink, especially later in the day? Any squash or drinks like that?

I’m not a fan of reward charts and bribing but I think at this age I might consider it. Also explaining that you don’t feel good during the day because you are very, very tired because she wakes you up. She might just find some empathy and make an effort!

I would say that developmentally your child is not nearly 3 if she was born very prematurely in the March. My ds didn't sleep through the night until 2.5, when he dropped the nap, so it might help.

At 2 this is still normal, but the staying awake is the problem. As co sleeping doesn't help, do you think sleeping in the same room with separate beds help? Have you tried thenl supernanny technique? It helped me move from him from only going to sleep lying on top of me to going to sleep in his cot.

I do think one of the problems is that MN likes a simple thread with simple solutions and if an OP doesn’t conform to this it can lead to posters getting very argumentative and hostile.

My DS was terrible. It wasn’t so much that he woke up a lot as a baby, as he didn’t, it was more that it took so long to be able to get him back down in his crib that he’d wake at midnight and then you’d have to hold him until 2, then he’d wake at 4. So not much sleep. We moved him to his own room at 6 months and that was a mistake in retrospect as his sleep was chaotic then and it took until he was 18 months to sort it. Then he woke at 5 for a year.

He is actually a great sleeper now. But my god I tried everything with the 5am wakings, I was pregnant at the time and desperate for more sleep, the mornings lasted forever, he was so fucking grumpy after his nap because he was tired … no nap (didn’t work, fell asleep at 4pm instead) shorter nap (hell) longer nap (no) earlier bedtime (woke at 4) later bedtime (still woke at 5) dancing naked to a full moon, converting to Buddhism, prayer, offerings, sacrifice of a cow. Nothing worked. Then it stopped.

But I had the bossy squawking about boundaries and all of that and it does make you feel rubbish, like it’s your bad parenting. It isn’t. The OPs DD is still 2, I don’t think you can reason much at that age. Especially not in the middle of the night!

@GreenMarigold that's amazing I am genuinely going to try those ideas! I can try the not lying next to her one tomorrow thank you.

You're projecting onto me how you're feeling. There are thousands of posters on this forum, if you don't like what I say then only listen to the people who you do. I'm not fussed either way. I've been posting on Mumsnet for a long time and have given and received plenty of great advice. If you don't like my tone because you're feeling delicate at the moment, maybe take a break from posting online.

I have no idea who you are and am not inclined to apologise for posting on a public forum. If you think my posts cross a line somehow, report me.

My daughter didn't sleep through until she was 4, she would be awake for around 2 hours every night. I co-slept with her, and would doze during her 2 hours of wakefulness. It was awful, but it did pass. She is a teenager now and for years has preferred a later bedtime and later waking, if she doesn't have school then she falls into a 1am go to sleep and 12pm wake up pattern.

It’s also worth bearing in mind people do talk shit on here, I don’t mean anyone specifically on this thread but there is at least one poster drifting about on here who I know is lying about her perfectly behaved children, who likes making others feel bad.

Your aren't the only one OP. Lots of kids are the same but parents keep it quiet for fear of being judged and because the sleep deprivation is their norm now.

Mine have both started sleeping through loads of times. Followed a few weeks/months later by then not sleeping through. We've tried pretty much everything, letting them sleep in our room, us sleeping in their rooms, repeatedly taking them back to their beds, having a 'just in case' bed ready for them on our floor, everyone sleeping in the same room, getting grumpy, seeing me be tearful about it, being calm but firm, bribery, not going out places because I'm too tired, not having fancy breakfasts because I'm too tired

It's easy for people to say they 'wouldn't let' their child do this, but they also haven't parented our children. Between the two of them, I've been trying to get children to sleep well for 12 years (7+5). Believe me, if it was as easy as having a chat, discussing pancakes and being firm for a few days then we'd have conquered this year's ago. We took our eldest back to bed every time she came in for over a year. Didn't stop her coming in...

My youngest (currently asleep on the sofabed in my room) hated cosleeping but woke for me every hour from 6-18m. I trudged across the landing at least 10 times every night as she'd scream enough to wake her older sibling if my husband went in. She now likes cosleeping, and varies between sleeping in our bed, on the sofa or in her bed. I just let her get on with it now

Hi @Peebleneeb i have a DD who was a terrible sleeper. Slightly different situation in that she is adopted but a couple of things stuck out to me from your OP. I wonder if your child’s experiences of being away from you at night when they were in NICU might have some impact on the difficulties you’re experiencing?

The reason I wonder this is because over the years I have worked out that the multiple moves my DD had from foster home to foster home before she was adopted as a toddler likely included being moved when she was a sleeping baby so she went to sleep with one set of caregivers in one place and woke up somewhere else with different caregivers. This naturally made pre verbal DD very anxious but obv being a baby she couldn’t articulate it and the anxiety came out through inability to settle to sleep, waking in the night, needing me to be physically with her for her to fall asleep etc.

I tried everything over the years, and there are some good suggestions others have given. For a long time I sat with her for up to 2 hours a night til she fell asleep, we then had a period of her having a bed in my room next to my bed, we called it her ‘emergency bed’ and if she woke up in the night she would come in and settle on that, usually holding my hand. it took a long time for her to sleep in her own room but she did ultimately manage it (and there were many years when I just couldn’t envisage it ever happening) and I think from about age 10 she has been able to sleep in her own room all night through.

it’s not popular and I know it’s not great sleep hygiene but she falls asleep with tv or music on and this was a game changer for her. She needs some noise to help her feel calm enough to sleep (she has ADHD and has trouble ‘switching her brain off’ as she describes it)

Long story short, it gets better. I promise. It won’t be like this forever. DD is nearly 16 now, managed her first school trip abroad last year (huge milestone for her sleeping away from home), the ‘emergency bed’ is in the attic and has been for a good few years and despite falling asleep to music or tv every night for about the last 5 years she’s a well rounded young woman and doing well at school so I like to think it hasn’t done her too much harm!

Good luck and solidarity. Sleep deprivation is the worst.

My daughter was a nightmare - in the end was solved by having a sofa bed in our bedroom and she would come sleep in there if she woke up. Always started off in her room. Got to the stage that she would wake up and bring herself in to room and I'd wake up in morning and she'd be there!!
Turns out she just wanted a bit of company

One of mine is a premmie and is exactly the same. From about 2 I stopped trying to fight her biology and put her in the cot bed with a rail so she couldn't fall out and encouraged her to come into my bed from whenever she first woke up. I get so much more sleep that way and continue to do even with more children. I think for a premmie with the trauma yours has had bedtime might be a calm experience but waking up in the night alone will trigger a cortisol and adrenaline response so strong she needs your physical presence to regulate and the chemicals of the fight flight and freeze response can take 90 mins to dissipate which is why I'd just bring her to bed. You're on a hiding to nothing currently.

OP it's not as abnormal as you may think. I have one terrible sleeper and one who's always settled well but both woke up on the night at age 3. For both of them the big turning point was straying school. Both shattered and started sleeping through then.

It's absolutely shattering but stick with your routine, it will get better!

Completely normal.
It was the same for each of our dc.
We now have it all over again - 17 years older and feeling it, and they are teens going out! It never stops.

Adjust your expectations and make the adaptions needed to keep yourselves as well rested as possible taking it in turns to lie in st the weekends etc.

My son will be 4 in Feb. He went through a phase of taking ages to get to sleep, even after a bedtime routine and then sometimes waking up and being up for ages.
we found dropping the nap was the key. It changed everything. So maybe give that a go.

Ds was the same. We went and bought a special teddy bear that we told him had special powers to help him sleep and keep him safe in bed. It worked in that we then went in and would say cuddle teddy he helps you. Slowly sleep improved. Ds17 still has that teddy on his bed!

@bakewellbride I don't know why you seem angered by my post. This post isn't about you, or what problems you are unfortunately experiencing, and I agree with the PP that there seems to be a lot of emotion and projection here from some sleep deprived parents. I get it, not sleeping is really bloody hard, but this isn't an echo chamber and there are other valid viewpoints.

I was responding to the OP and her situation and I'm sorry, but a 3 year old "screaming like she's being murdered" because she "insists" on having her hair stroked for an hour at bedtime needs boundaries. She is 3, not a baby, and she is having a tantrum trying to get her own way. The OP is clear that the bedtime situation has gotten worse and her demands are escalating. I have advised some rules are introduced. That is all. Because it sounds like there aren't any.

Well I put DS to bed at 8 and I still haven't heard from him 🤣🥳

I think the weaning him off needing physical contact to fall asleep has helped massively but maybe it's just time. Or it's a fluke 🤷‍♀️

My 3 year old was the same until we dropped his nap!

@Peebleneeb
Try to remove the side of the cot! My dd never climbed out, but I started to notice when she was 2 and half she started to wake up during the night. Removed the side, and she started to sleep through. I guess she felt trapped, and she loved the option that she could come out if she wanted to - thankfully, she stays in her bed all night.