Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

How’s your house function normally with an incredibly angry/disruptive child in it?

132 replies

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 26/05/2024 19:38

I’m pondering this tonight as we’ve crashed into the bank holiday weekend in absolute turmoil again due to my eight year olds behaviour.

Manages to be a role model student at school but has been exceptionally dysregulated at home since the age of four. No ACES. No diagnosis, presents as NT I would say. Extremely controlling which I know can go hand in hand with anxiety.

In the last few days they have put a hole in the wall, thrown everything around when angry. Blocked me into various rooms whilst hitting me and pushing me continuously. Pushed my eleven year old around and blocked them from leaving areas. Will scream and scream for over an hour. Demands their own way at all times. Cannot cope with being told no. Extremely defiant, never acquiesces on anything. Most disagreeable personality I think I’ve met.

I’ve approached lots of outside help in the last four years and attended training courses through my work and privately. The best I can do is manage it. Down the line I can honestly see it breaking the family up. My partner (the children’s dad) is barely coping really. We grab a tiny amount of time together each day to have a relationship but our child dominates everything. Days out get ruined. Days in creates a war in the house. I’m honestly at a bit of a loss.

can anyone else relate and if so, how are you all managing and did anything improve with time? By the way this child is EXTREMELY bright and has a wonderful group of friends and a hobby they love. No financial worries. No arguing between partner and I.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
VivaVivaa · 27/05/2024 08:17

@EvangelicalAboutButteredToast I would ignore anyone on the thread talking about parenting styles or consequences or spoilt children unless they have direct experience of demand avoidance autism.

You probably have years of gaslighting ahead of you. You don’t need to start it here, today.

dontbelievewhatyousee · 27/05/2024 08:20

It’s difficult but many years of emotion regulation, patience from siblings and us, seeing triggers before it explodes and disarming, getting in the way physically to stop attacks to others. You get used to being your child’s therapist, I spent years resisting living in a world focused around one child but all it did was make me sad at my lost freedom. When I eventually accepted it and I never thought I would, it’s been a lot easier to find happiness.

Any therapy for emotional regulation is helpful, play therapy, typical therapy.

It is never going to be normal but all my children are happy most of the time. We have access to a lot of resources others don’t which is helpful but it doesn’t change it all.

We’ve all learnt to deal with challenging behaviour, become resilient with conflict. We live in a world which is totally different to others (whenever I mention it to anyone who wants to know they always looked shocked). You get used to it, they get older and become better eventually at managing it, it doesn’t feel like that will ever happen when you are in it though.

It has changed me to my core though.

AceofPentacles · 27/05/2024 08:24

You have had lots of advice and I hope you can get some help with assessments and strategies.

I just wanted to offer some light at the end of the (very dark) tunnel we also went through from birth until 11/12.

I used to cry thinking that when he got bigger than me he would beat me and I felt like I was in an abusive relationship I couldn't leave. DP wanted to leave for years.

Now DS is 13, he has chilled out to such a massive degree, apologises if he's been rude to me. More likely to give me a hug than hit me. But we have hardly any demands at home. Personal hygiene and eating well. Some fresh air. Screens off at 9pm. Go to school. That's about it. Hang on in there

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

ProfessorPeppy · 27/05/2024 08:33

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 26/05/2024 20:52

Interesting! Absolutely no one is interested in seeking out a diagnosis as he is a role model everywhere else bar home. Infact most people don’t really believe me when I have said what’s going on. The whole thing is so weird.

I’m a SENDCo (Secondary). I believe you; this is typical PDA presentation.

I would be asking primary SENDCo to consider that - at some point soon - the masking in school will break down and secondary school will inherit a really tricky set of problems. Secondary transition might fail, resulting in school refusal (EBSNA). Primary need to make his next school aware of this.

In the meantime: GP - or be prepared to go private for an assessment. School don’t need a diagnosis but it can help open some doors.

itsgettingweird · 27/05/2024 08:36

If he is melting down so drastically at home maybe school and lots of extra curricular are too much?

I'd be talking calmly to him and saying he's not coping with life. You are going to cut down on things outside school to give him more down time.

Then add some structure at home - eg emptying dishwasher daily to add some sense of security and routine at home.

Tell him once he can manage to use some calming strategies at home (provide a safe space or swing in garden etc he can do to when overwhelmed) you can begin to increase the activities he does behind the demands of school.

There is lots of things you've written that point towards a PDA profile. So the more he has to do outside the house and mask through them the more he'll have to let go of inside the home.

ProfessorPeppy · 27/05/2024 08:40

I think @itsgettingweird point about extracurriculars is a good one.

DS1 is AuDHD and has very, very little outside school. He is genuinely exhausted from masking all day. I take him to a fairly low-demand music activity on a Friday and sometime’s that’s too much on top of school. DS2, on the other hand, does loads of extra stuff but is often fretful/tearful by bedtime (no diagnosis).

We’re abroad in a lovely place at the moment and DS1 doesn’t really like the change. He’d rather lie in a darkened room Grin

21andon · 27/05/2024 08:41

I don’t have much to add except a bit of hope - this was my ds from ages 2-8/9. But he’s 10 now and things have improved so much. We didn’t really change anything, just all the patient talking through emotions has finally clicked and he understands more (& is old enough now) to regulate & manage his emotions so much more. I was very fearful about the future as he got bigger & stronger but actually we are in a completely different place now. I hope things also improve for you.

OmuraWhale · 27/05/2024 08:49

My friend's son was a bit like this (although also had some more typically ND behaviours). My friend and her husband had to learn police style restraint techniques to keep everyone in the family safe (including the younger sibling). Eventually he got a diagnosis of autism with PDA. He's much better now (age 17) and has been for the last few years.

SuzySizzle · 27/05/2024 08:55

It sounds awful and it must be so worrying that he might continue to have outbursts as he gets older.
Do you go out on your own in the evening with your friends? Is there a reason you've never used babysitters? I think it's really good for kids to see that they aren't the centre of everything and it's good to see their parents as proper individuals rather than just 'parents'

Mishmashs · 27/05/2024 08:58

OP, forgot to add one thing that has helped. When he was in these rages and tearful it sometimes manifested itself as him biting himself and thinking himself on the head, I suppose because he felt some guilt at losing control. He’d squeeze under a sofa we had and stay there for ages during the calm down phase. I bought a weighted blanket and also a kind of stretchy cocoon he can get in and push against when he’s angry. I don’t know if your son exhibits these kinds of needs? Like a sensory thing to fight against? He hasn’t used the cocoon for a while but the weighted blanket has helped when I see him teetering into a meltdown I suggest he lie on the floor in a quiet room and I’ll bring the blanket to him and then we’ll leave him be. Our school has a very active additional needs whatsapp group and people pass these things along on there or you can borrow them to see if they work etc.

CuteOrangeElephant · 27/05/2024 09:08

My DD is like this, I literally have a massive bruise on my thigh from when she kicked me last week. I often wonder what the neighbours must think of us.

She is extremely bright (had an IQ test, 130 but according to the psychologist likely underperformed because she refused to engage properly) and I suspect on the spectrum. She is on the waiting list for an assesment.

At school and other settings she is angelic! But at home she takes it out on her dad and me. She has no siblings, I don't think I could cope with another like that. Even has a baby she was 'hard work'. She has a really controlling streak, but I think that comes out of anxiety.

On days she feels good, life is good. On days that she doesn't, life sucks for the whole family.

I don't really have any tips, can only offer sympathy.

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 27/05/2024 09:16

Ha ha I know what the neighbours think of us!!! They think we’re abusive. Pretty much said as much before they stopped talking to us. They’ve heard enough screaming and crying to assume we are doing something. Thank god for my older child quite honestly as if we do end up with SS at the door he is incredibly articulate and can explain exactly what goes on.

OP posts:
EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 27/05/2024 09:26

SuzySizzle · 27/05/2024 08:55

It sounds awful and it must be so worrying that he might continue to have outbursts as he gets older.
Do you go out on your own in the evening with your friends? Is there a reason you've never used babysitters? I think it's really good for kids to see that they aren't the centre of everything and it's good to see their parents as proper individuals rather than just 'parents'

there are reasons why i don’t go out that often but nothing connected with the children really. The hobby side that’s lapsed is definitely connected to my son’s behaviour though as DP can’t cope with his behaviour alone. Doesn’t have the tools, hasn’t done the work, isn’t really convinced it’s anything other than naughtiness 🤦🏻‍♀️🤬. So I have to be omnipresent and tethered to the house when the kids are there to manage it and cool it.

OP posts:
3WildOnes · 27/05/2024 09:56

VivaVivaa · 27/05/2024 08:17

@EvangelicalAboutButteredToast I would ignore anyone on the thread talking about parenting styles or consequences or spoilt children unless they have direct experience of demand avoidance autism.

You probably have years of gaslighting ahead of you. You don’t need to start it here, today.

Edited

Absolutely this. I posted a similar thread to this years ago (under an old username) and only had replies telling me to be firmer, stricter, use more sanctions or I would have a teenager beating me up. I think the only exception might have been @BertieBotts . Anyway, I tried being stricter and using more sanctions and it almost destroyed us as a family. It took years to undo the damage and to repair my relationship with my son. Said child is now a teenager and hasn't lashed out at me physically for many years and verbally for a few years.

ProfessorPeppy · 27/05/2024 10:06

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 27/05/2024 09:26

there are reasons why i don’t go out that often but nothing connected with the children really. The hobby side that’s lapsed is definitely connected to my son’s behaviour though as DP can’t cope with his behaviour alone. Doesn’t have the tools, hasn’t done the work, isn’t really convinced it’s anything other than naughtiness 🤦🏻‍♀️🤬. So I have to be omnipresent and tethered to the house when the kids are there to manage it and cool it.

Your DH is problematic. Men tend to be lazier about these things, but also in denial about their own ND traits. How is your DH when you have discussions about your DS?

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 27/05/2024 10:12

ProfessorPeppy · 27/05/2024 10:06

Your DH is problematic. Men tend to be lazier about these things, but also in denial about their own ND traits. How is your DH when you have discussions about your DS?

Feels like I’m telling him off. Gets defensive. But I’m really firm with my words discussing how we handle DS so I pretty much force him to hear me out and most of the time we tag team very well.

OP posts:
CuteOrangeElephant · 27/05/2024 10:15

My DH is also more on the 'child is naughty, this behaviour is on purpose, we have to be firm' side. Which is not always helpful.

At the other hand, I am a huge molly-coddler which also doesn't help.

DH and I are both have ND tendencies.

BertieBotts · 27/05/2024 10:20

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 26/05/2024 20:57

Oh and another thing we’ve noticed is sugar is a massive trigger as is tiredness. The more tired the more volatile. He is also constantly on the go. Rarely sits down.

I would look into sensory seeking profile as well (maybe The Out of Sync Child?) and for sure the Stuart Shanker / Self-Reg stuff. I didn't find the Self-Reg book very useful on its own, I only found it useful from combining with finding every podcast I could where he is interviewed and all the talks of his on youtube and putting it all together, plus other resources which explain about the autonomic nervous system and how the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system work together to regulate arousal level based on the currently perceived level of threat.

Sugar is an interesting one because so many people report seeing changes with sugar whereas in double-blind trials, there are no reported differences in behaviour, however there is a strong difference in behaviour when parents think their child has had sugar. I think more research may be needed here, but I do think that some people are more sensitive to blood sugar levels and it can affect regulation, or it may be you are seeing some kind of secondary effect, like sugar causing a release of dopamine and you're actually seeing the effect of dopamine? Be careful with this, because there is a lot of junk science which is popular now particularly regarding dopamine, but I would look at the role of dopamine specifically in relation to ADHD / executive functioning skills, addictive behaviours, and the nervous system.

On the topics of podcasts, there were a couple on SENDCast with Clare Truman about PDA which were brilliant.

I actually do think that giving kids a sense of responsibility for a communal goal, which could mean chores, is extremely helpful and valuable in helping them position/orient themselves as useful and competent and needed within a family, and can help with an egalitarian approach because otherwise it is more like adults are doing things for children which is a different role. I would not force this, as that can be counterproductive, but it may be a useful conversation to have when everyone is calm. Another useful thing to do which I think is great here is talking to them about their family story/history which can help ground them in time and place and support a positive identity. Identifying strengths is also good, it sounds like you are doing this already.

You might find some of the ADHD Dude stuff helpful as well. However, he does lean strongly towards the mindset that adults need to be in charge and children need to learn/understand that structure to succeed, so I'm a bit on the fence about whether his approach will work for all families. But I do think he has some very useful things to say pointing out patterns that he sees of families who have let the balance tip too far the other way, so the child is effectively in control.

I am very far from an expert so please take my opinion for what it is here: I do think for the autonomous/collaborative thing to work, it only works if there is balance. You can either run a household where the parents are in charge, or where everyone is in charge of themselves, but the parents are a sort of safety net/balance check, what is dysfunctional is when children (or more usually, one child) is essentially controlling everything because the adults are trying to avoid meltdowns and essentially only avoid meltdowns.

If you find yourself in that situation, then it might be helpful to look at some of the approaches where you don't engage with the conflict in the moment, or use de-escalation techniques in the moment, but then what happens outside the moment is fairly crucial. For some children/a more collaborative approach, where they are distressed by their own behaviour when they are in that fight or flight state because it makes them feel out of control, and they already recognise that it's an out of proportion reaction, then it might be that you don't need to address that aggressive behaviour directly because they don't want to be aggressive and they actually would welcome tools to not get into that state in the first place, so looking at overall regulation, reducing stressors, (Self-Reg) looking at trigger situations individually and seeing their point of view (The Explosive Child) as well as helping support them with self-regulation skills (e.g. mindfulness, biofeedback, heavy work, physical exercise, breathing techniques, redirection) and any medication/therapy which may be useful, this can all help reduce the amount of meltdowns in the first place and over time the child gets better at recognising their own sort of "meltdown likelihood status" and managing it (literally, self-regulating) and also advocating for their own needs, opting for outside-the-box solutions if they need to.

However, if you have the situation of a child who actually quite likes going into the fight-or-flight state on some level, because it makes them feel powerful and/or it gets them what they want, or they think (once they have calmed down) that they are totally in the right even if they can parrot off yes I know I was not supposed to do that, or if they are feeling "I know I shouldn't hit/shout but there is no other way to get what I want" then there may be a value to adding some kind of external accountability (which to be clear, means a minor/token punishment) outside of the moment, for the aggressive behaviour which happened within the moment. You STILL deescalate or disengage during the actual event itself and it is useful if you do remind them of the house rules/consequences in the moment that you do it in a disengaged way, rather than presenting it as a kind of counter threat/weapon to try and get them to back down in the moment, which is how "typical parenting" generally uses threat of consequences. But anyway, there are some good guidelines for how to do this within the ADHD Dude stuff and also in the Who's In Charge book.

BertieBotts · 27/05/2024 10:36

3WildOnes · 27/05/2024 09:56

Absolutely this. I posted a similar thread to this years ago (under an old username) and only had replies telling me to be firmer, stricter, use more sanctions or I would have a teenager beating me up. I think the only exception might have been @BertieBotts . Anyway, I tried being stricter and using more sanctions and it almost destroyed us as a family. It took years to undo the damage and to repair my relationship with my son. Said child is now a teenager and hasn't lashed out at me physically for many years and verbally for a few years.

Well now I feel bad for writing a whole post mentioning sanctions Grin

But I think that my understanding has just evolved a bit - there are situations where they are useful, but you have to be extremely careful with how you do it in order to avoid making the situation worse, and the way most people who don't have experience of this kind of behaviour think would be useful, which is about winning/overpowering to establish yourself as top dog so you regain control, has huge potential to make things worse.

If a child's aggression is because they have gone into fight or flight, then they are already interpreting everything as a threat. It does NOT help in that scenario to add more threat. That is just going to make things worse. Trying to "win" in that scenario is going to convince them even more that you (and/or maybe adults or even the world in general) don't care about them/don't see their side/don't listen/don't understand, when actually they need to believe that you do care, you do listen, you do understand them and really trust that before they will work with you.

If you're going to use sanctions at all, then they need to be somehow external and disconnected so it's not you against your child, it's you plus the child on a team against the rule/behaviour/threat, or you and the child as neutral disinterested parties with the sanctions being a sort of third party. Probably easier to do in a situation like a school than at home.

SuzySizzle · 27/05/2024 10:43

there are reasons why i don’t go out that often but nothing connected with the children really. The hobby side that’s lapsed is definitely connected to my son’s behaviour though as DP can’t cope with his behaviour alone. Doesn’t have the tools, hasn’t done the work, isn’t really convinced it’s anything other than naughtiness 🤦🏻‍♀️🤬. So I have to be omnipresent and tethered to the house when the kids are there to manage it and cool it.

Hmm, I'm hesitant to give advice as Im not qualified to do so but I wonder if it's a mistake to do this. Surely you both need space from each other and what about taking your other child out without your son. You also really need to be looking after yourself. Everyone benefits if you are as happy as you can be and your children need to see you as an independent person not just as "mother"

Giving your husband a free pass not to 'cope' with your son sounds worrying too.

Do you have anyone who can look after the kids? Can you afford a babysitter? Do they ever go on sleepovers? Is any of this a possibility? If your son is ok at school might he be ok with a babysitter.

NameChange30 · 27/05/2024 11:17

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 27/05/2024 09:26

there are reasons why i don’t go out that often but nothing connected with the children really. The hobby side that’s lapsed is definitely connected to my son’s behaviour though as DP can’t cope with his behaviour alone. Doesn’t have the tools, hasn’t done the work, isn’t really convinced it’s anything other than naughtiness 🤦🏻‍♀️🤬. So I have to be omnipresent and tethered to the house when the kids are there to manage it and cool it.

If your partner doesn't change his attitude, your relationship won't survive.

happybluefern · 27/05/2024 11:40

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 26/05/2024 21:45

He doesn’t find school difficult. I’m assuming he may be masking at school but he shows no signs of concern at school. Happily goes, gets pristine reports, has lots of friends. Does as he is told at school. Respects authority. It’s at home when it completely changes. If I say left, he says right. If I say up, he says down. He needs to control all of us and we must bend to his will. If we don’t all hell breaks lose. That’s the problem.

Have you got any way of looking into play/drama/art therapy? I know you’ve said you don’t have any ACEs and people can bristle at the mention of therapy as it feel
like a criticism of their parenting - but sometimes there just isn’t an obvious reason why young people have such big feelings and a good therapist used to working creatively with children can start to draw out their thoughts and feelings and help them regulate.

prob a good idea for you to be using strategies you can learn from PDA books etc - diagnosis wise, getting one just means you would be referred to all that stuff anyway. School isn’t the problem area so it’s not a case of wanting the school to take and issue seriously, make adjustments etc. So it seems like it would be a personal pursuit for the family to get a diagnosis of… something. I always think it’s worth asking ‘why do I want this diagnosis’ and there may be answers to that feel like good reasons or reasons of wanting a fix that won’t necessarily come.

happybluefern · 27/05/2024 11:45

Also OP even though I have written a response I think it’s also worth saying any random internet advice from people who have never met you or your child is to be taken with a big pinch of salt! We can all assume we have an idea of what’s going on but that’s based on our experiences not yours. Getting someone ‘on the ground’ to be interested is probably the key thing, whatever form that takes.

SeulementUneFois · 27/05/2024 11:59

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 26/05/2024 20:52

Interesting! Absolutely no one is interested in seeking out a diagnosis as he is a role model everywhere else bar home. Infact most people don’t really believe me when I have said what’s going on. The whole thing is so weird.

OP

I would record him especially when he's hitting you, and present multiple such recordings to the GP.

Be careful as he may get extra enraged at seeing you recording - I would suggest a nanny cam hidden somewhere (do that while he's at school).

Getoutgetout · 27/05/2024 13:13

I would look at the PDA society rather than FB groups. The PDA society will explain symptoms, approaches and diagnosis. FB groups can be helpful but often not!

Swipe left for the next trending thread