Smart, kind, helpful 7 year old DESTROYING home

[cassielb]

Hi fellow mums. First time poster long time viewer needing desperate help or advice.

My 7 year old daughter has been displaying quite destructive habits the last 1-2 years.

Quick summary on her though she is extremely smart, well behaved in school, very helpful, kind, polite everything is great other than her constantly destroying her room.

She has picked up an attitude the last few months as expected but she quickly apologises when she knows she is wrong. Now with the destroying her room. She has drawn on walls, toys, furniture, carpet so we took her desk out and had a rule of only pens and crafts downstairs. Great! This continued as she would either sneak pens home from nana's/school/downstairs so we started doing bag checks and made her clean up what she had ruined. Great! Christmas goes by and she got some stocking crafts and completely destroyed her tonies she had just gotten by drawing colouring all over them. My fault for not checking what family members had given her when passing by at Xmas. So we got more strict with checking her room, basically compromised and said you prove you can be responsible for your room we will fix up (fix it meaning repaint what she had destroyed and change her room a little).

Our last straw was her drawing on her infant sisters toys while I was upstairs changing her. We cancelled her school holiday activities and she was not allowed to see her nana (who she loves) that week. My last straw and why I'm writing this post was I just went to tuck her in while she was asleep and noticed she has carved out chunks of her wall and carved numbers letters into the wall with a hair clip.

I woke her up asked why and it's the usual, I don't know, I don't remember, it was an accident, I'm sorry! I'm at my wits end, she is such a good child in every other aspect other than this. When I say she is so so so kind loving smart she is an angle but this we cannot seem to budge. We tried back checks, reward coins, reward charts, grounding, no activities, no tv, only books in her room, everything. I don't know what else to do, it's been 2 years of her ruining her room in our first home we have bought and it's only getting worse. Any advice is much appreciated

P.s : she went through a phase of taking things from nana's house, cousins house and had even taken things from shops. This went on for around a year but after letting her know if it happened again we would have to tell the police this has stopped. For good hopefully!

Pss: he dad has adhd, I don't know much about it but he seems to think she had it. She is a bit fidgety and her school report is great other than her getting distracted! This aside as I said she is an amazing child which is why I get so frustrated punishing her.

I need help

But your way isn't working...

Do you want to fix it or keeping doing what you're doing?

Of course kids can draw and paint at home, that’s what chalk boards and easels are for 🙄
Kids destroying things, whether their own or others, IS feral behaviour.
Teachers have to try and teach these undisciplined little shits every day, or rather they waste precious teaching time having to control kids who have never learned how to sit still, pay attention and behave.

That wasn't what I was trying to say.
More that in the hours following a punishment it is even more important to acknowledge when they are now behaving. It reinforces that x behave is unacceptable but y behaviour is what is wanted.
She sounds a lot like my little sister. My mum would brood for the rest of the afternoon after punishing her. My dad would wait until she was behaving and take her out for an hour to show he had seen she had rectified her behaviour. For my mum she would quickly go back to misbehaving but for my dad she would continue to behave.

Is it destruction or play/imagination? Not how you see it. But how she sees it and why it is happening. You want to find out the why you don't ask in accusatory,angry way. You ask what she was doing, how did it happen , what she was doing before ,ask her to tell you about it and what it means.

Depending on what it is, you will need different methods to deal with it.

Sorry just quoting so I can reference as a few things stood out to me.

firstly obviously this is not normal behaviour for an otherwise “normally” developing, happy, loved child.

a child might draw on the wall, get told that’s not ok, and would learn that’s not ok. Usually around 3-5 years. By 7, she knows it’s not ok. Of course a child might draw on the wall as an act of rebellion or boundary testing or just in a moment of artistic flare at age 7 (or any age up until 16 really!) but once. Not over and over.

im not going to comment on whether you should chalkboard the walls - you’d be best speaking to a very qualified psychologist about this. Although obviously if she wants to draw you should lean into that in some capacity.

secondly, you say your husband has adhd - just wondering how come you haven’t looked into this strongly if he feels your daughter might too? It runs in families but in girls it can be hard to spot. And as she’s your first child (I think?) there may be things that she does that you think all kids do because you haven’t got another NT child to compare to. Even if she is NT, I’d be looking to find ways to support your husband and work with his adhd at home because it can be difficult for other people in the family to live with some of the things that come with neurodivergence in the household. Again, don’t know your husbands symptoms so this is just general but learning is always good!

lastly, the carving this sounds compulsive. The pretending she doesn’t remember/doesn’t know why she does these things. And the numbers/letters things flags up OCD. Especially when combined with possible adhd as they can be related. This was really the thing I wanted to mention most because if it is ocd you can help SO much by being aware of it early.

OCD often makes people (adults too) feel ashamed, scared and they will hide their behaviours or - pretend they don’t know why something is happening. Everyone struggles in different ways but things such as thinking your family is going to die if you don’t do something, thinking you’ll lose an arm if you don’t count to the right number whilst washing your face, etc etc. 5 is often an age of awareness of death which can trigger things like this.

if you watch her, and think about her,L behaviours, you might be looking for things such as

• clamming up when talking about/dealing with injury or death.
• Not wanting to engage with particular conversations for no apparent reason.
• going quiet or trying to interrupt when something happens or something is being talked about but having a look of panic on their face (which they’ll deny)
• coughing/grunting tics - for example a little cough or huff that has no reason and if you ask about she just pretends she doesn’t know why it’s happening
• getting upset if she can’t do something eg you say get into bed. she seemingly randomly picks up a book and puts it somewhere and when you say stop it and get into bed she carries on almost defiantly which is frustrating to you because why does she need to mess with that book right now? When asked she’ll deflect but is suddenly hoot when the book is placed how she wants and will go to bed.
• other tics/repetitive behaviours
• Number counting quietly

more info online to get a better idea

again I have NO idea why she’s doing this but just in case felt it might be worth drawing your attention to it.

First thing I thought of tbh.

Your way isn't working OP frankly. All behaviour is communication and you're ignoring it.

Not really sure what you want people to say.

Oh and another question, how much time does she spend in her room unsupervised?

Almost none! Most of her time is downstairs with me or her dad sister in her playroom which opens up into the kitchen where I usually am or in the living room with her sister and dad. This is why we thought about pushing her bedtime back as we realised all of this was happening when we were tuck her into bed she would be getting back up out of boredom/not being tired yet

@Devonshiregal thank you for the constructive kind reply. We haven't given much thought to the wallpaper and letting her draw on wallls just as she has a big playroom with a messy play and craft area we don't want to reinforce behaviour we are trying to stop. Ideally we want to get to a place where she can have a desk in her room and do her writing drawing there and not on walls ha ha

Regarding the adhd I spoke to my MIL for signs related to my partner when he was young. She has a few similar but our HV also said this is age appropriate behaviour at the time. She's only just turned the age in my area where we can get her properly tested so I will be looking into it. Going over the list she doesn't display any signs other than impulsiveness and fidgeting so we have been rejected for referrals at her school but will be pushing or possibly go private.

I did not think about OCD. Thanks for mentioning and listing the points, she is the opposite of those points so I don't think it could be that but I will keep an eye out

Some of the things I did in my house/room as a kid:

• 'ruin' a pine bunk bed and our pine kitchen table by pressing my teeth into the soft wood and leaving thousands of marks
• cut the hair of two very expensive Bert and Ernie puppets my aunt had sent me over from the States
• peeled half the paint off my bedroom wall
• drew all over my teeth-marked pine bed
• destroyed stationery such as breaking up rubbers, taking pens apart, breaking crayons
• drew all over my white trainers

I was diagnosed with AuDHD at age 40. It was a combination of poor impulse control and sensory seeking. My parents weren't too happy about all the stuff I 'ruined' but they could also see that it was like scratching an itch for me, so they weren't too hard on me.

@calligraphee I did not say what we have done is working. But allowing her to draw on walls because 'she's just a kid' is not something I'm going to do.

Oh wow at 40! What made you finally get tested.

Yes that's how I feel which is why we never shout at her as I know she isn't doing it on purpose to be naughty. We just remove the broken/ruined item from her and eventually give it back once she has stopped. But it repeats.

Yes it repeats because she is compelled to do it, her whole body wants her to do it. Have just seen she had unsupervised access to a makeup set, don't! I may have ruined a fair few lipsticks in my time 😏

I may smirk but as a child I was full of shame about it. Now with an even MORE impulsive 10yo myself I forgive and forget it. I restrict access to anything dangerous, but the most robust versions of things I can and let a whole lot go.

I don’t think it’s ‘normal’ and my kids don’t do this but it’s just the way you describe the punishments, seems really harsh and like you’re not necessarily looking into what’s going on for her rather than just assuming it’s bad behaviour and needs to be punished. If you’re thinking ADHD a possibility then she may be struggling with impulse control.

I’ve known a few children who have been similar, in terms of persisting with doing something they have been told not to do, and they have all been neurodiverse.
You could try to introduce a less destructive soothing habit, maybe some sort of putty to fiddle with. Presumably she understands that what she is doing is causing you a problem in terms of your rented property, and it might be worth trying to explain the cost and difficulty of putting it right, but it sounds like her compulsive behaviour might override any understanding.
I think would get an assessment not only for ADHD but also ASD.

So, you're married to a person with ADHD but haven't bothered to find out anything about it and when DH suggests he thinks DD may have it you put many punishments in place then finally come HERE for help!!!

WTF, OP?!!

Get the child to the GP and get some advice. These are clearly coping strategies and she needs help. Many ND kids who mask all day at school end up acting out at home or developing strategies/compulsions that help them regulate difficult feelings.

Stop trying to think up more punishments and help her.

@Muthaofcats she has not qualified for adhd testing as she 'doesn't show any signs'. She has spoken to her school counsellor as have I and they have suggested adhd but it is extremely hard to get testing for this

Which punishment do you see as harsh? What would you suggest? She ruined her sisters toys and was meant to go out with her nana to soft play that same day, her nana and I and her dad all said no as it was rewarding bad behaviour. Instead she stayed in with me helped clean what we could and then read books and played the rest of the day instead of having a day out of fun. She was not kept in a house locked away from life. I removed her crafts from her bedroom and only allowed her to use them in her play room. That's harsh punishment?

As mentioned multiple times. She has been refused as she does not show any signs of adhd. We took her pens out of her room and said she can only use them in her play room. She ruined her sisters toys so she was not allowed to go out that day as her nana and dad both agreed it was rewarding bad behaviour. You think this is harsh punishment.

She has an amazing school counsellor that speaks to ALL children on a weekly basis at school. I've spoke to HV and they suggested adhd testing even though she does not show any serious signs. This has been refused by our Gp and they are overwhelmed with requests. As mentioned we are looking going for private testing. Please read propeller before you judge.

Also adhd is very broad and it looks different for every child

@Muthaofcats she has not qualified for adhd testing as she 'doesn't show any signs'. She has spoken to her school counsellor as have I and they have suggested adhd but it is extremely hard to get testing for this

If her school have suggested ADHD then she should have no problem getting on the wait list via GP.

If you don't want to wait, can you save and pay for it privately?

Yes, I know this. I have an ND child.

Luckily I didn't spend 2 years punishing him before I actually got help, though.

They said adhd as I mentioned her dad has it and it can be genetic. They did not list her as having any signs of it but said to still test. A referral from the school still has to be signed off by a GP. We are seeing a private counsellor and from there we are looking into private testing but again, waiting lists

@cassielb btw I was also a "destructive" child. I was actually just playing, using my imagination, lost in my own little world and going where the story/role plays took me. I tried to toe the line , by avoiding doing much of it , but the issue was when I did get lost in play it went even further . Also, there was a lot of frustration at having to stop, think everything through or giving up on playing so some damage did become destructive eventually because of that.

I'm inclined to think that this is more autistic behaviour than ADHD to be honest, particularly in the sensory seeking aspect and the theory of mind, in which in that moment she's drawing she isn't able to perceive how others might feel about her having done it.

This list gets shared a lot here but I'll share it again, the-art-of-autism.com/females-and-aspergers-a-checklist/ take a look OP.

BTW if it is autism or ADHD she can and probably will be fine. I have two postgraduate degrees, my own home, two kids, a husband. I'm happy.

I'm Confused that you've said you didn't wake her up in the night to tell her off when in your op (posted at 11pm) you literally say you've just gone in while she's asleep and seen she's been doing the stuff on the walls so woke her up?? Are you not in the UK, sorry if I've missed