Assault/suspension/trans child

[Stressedgiraffe]

I need some outside views.
My ds was suspended.
These care the facts

Incident 1 - AM T and two of his friends were taking shelter from the rain during morning break.

They were accosted by a large group of year 7 girls who were making derogatory slurs, being intimidating and making threats.

A girl said "Why are you wearing that hat, you freak". T replied, "It's raining".

At this point t took out his phone. The girl then said words along the lines of "why are you taking photos of me T**y" and other threats and slurs

The girl then punched down on to T's collar bone leaving a mark and broken skin while using hate speech term for a protected characteristic Ty

T's responded defensively with a partially closed hand push to the girls lower left jaw.

At this point friends took T to Ace, where he had to wait 10 minutes or more to be seen by a teacher She appeared to be already aware of the incident and sent T to ISR.

There appears to be little attempt to corroborate the incident from T and friends Rather relying on the words of a much larger group who were being intimidating to a marginalised and minority protected characteristic.

Incident 2 - PM
On attempting to leave at the end of the school day , T And friends were accosted again just prior to the school gate. A mixed age group of girls with what appears to be a sixth former participating.

One girl lunged at T pulling his hat and hair. The hat fell into a muddy puddle. This hat is very new and a comfort gift to T from his mother.

As T went to retrieve the hat from the puddle, the girl attempted to grab it as well, this action of her's caused her to hit into T's left hand where he was holding his phone.

The girl then proceeded to shout. "Did you see that SHE hit me" repeatedly.

The group then broke into two, with the Sixth Former and several other following T and his friends making threats and using derogatory hate speech.

His friends took him to where his mother was parked and asked that T get a lift as he was afraid for tanks safety and this group as around 5 meters from hid friends mothers car.

Friend's mother then drove him home.

As you can see from the two incidents, these were NOT initiated by T also there appears to be little in the way of quizzing his friends about their version of events, rather relying on others words.

This is deeply concerning, especially as T is physically small and continues to receive hate speech and intimidation whilst at High School as well as receiving harassment and threats whilst on school grounds.

They are threatening to exclude him. Wtf do we do?

If your daughter is assaulted by a younger girl, she'd be wrong to punch her, yes.

I completely disagree with that. My view is that if someone assaults you and you feel that you are in danger you can do what is necessary to get out of that situation.
People keep focussing on her being younger but I’m pretty sure OP said they were all taller than her child.
I’m interested to understand, at what point would you consider it to be acceptable to push someone away or punch them when they have assaulted you?

Agree, it's not like this younger child was a 3 year old kicking her in the shin. Being surrounded by a hostile group is very scary.

I think this is important actually. In one of my former jobs one of our staff was attacked by a group of 8-10 year old. They were in their 30s but were left unconscious and seriously ill as a result. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a young boy to be hit and intimidated by a group of other children and not expect them to fight back. Look at the amount of knife crime etc that's happening in the UK at the moment. The other week where I live a 15 year old was stabbed by a group of 13 year olds who randomly jumped him. A group of children that age can do real harm and its unacceptable that the school doesn't seem to recognise that. If a adult man couldn't keep himself safe in that scenario and was left unconscious because they wouldn't hit back being a staff member, what would you expect to happen to a young nd boy?

“React badly every time someone sees them as female” implies an overreaction based solely on above misgendering, and totally minimises the ASSAULT that happened.

The implication is there

At the point where it was likely to be the most successful strategy.

Like nearly all women, I've been assaulted, threatened, frightened and bullied hundreds of times. I've used multiple strategies & tactics, hardly any of them physically violent.

One of the most obvious responses is to yell loudly. I assume that, in a school playground at break time, other people are within earshot.

You've chosen to see the implication.

That’s one assumption for sure and yes, there are different ways of dealing with it but in this scenario, the person who was actually there judged that their best available option was to try and fight back when they were physically assaulted.

Im interested in whether we would have such a hung verdict if the person at the heart of this identified as female or whether we would agree that if she says she was assaulted we believe her (often said on this site when someone discloses), and that she used the best strategy available to her at that time.

Given that the school aren't dealing with this gang I'd not have much faith in someone responding to a shout for help.

And you have chosen to ignore it

The person is female and was assaulted by a younger female, so your whataboutery isn't relevant. And leveraging women's believing other women when they say they have been sexually assaulted is distasteful at best.

I've ignored it because it didn't seem worth a response.

My sister identified as a boy in the 90s for her it was more about identifying more with boys that the girls she knew rather than identifying as a boy. I'm sure she absolutely wasn't alone

In my high school in the early 00s we had more than one transgender pupil and a few more gender fluid students.

It's not a new phenomenon what has changed is the language to describe how a person feels. My sister for all intents and purposes lived as a boy, was called by a boys name but was left to explore the world and what it meant to be her or him or a girl or a boy all on her own without support or language to articulate her confusion. Do you really think this is a better state of affairs? I don't. Whether this child is transgender, feels transgender, doesn't feel right as a girl but also doesn't know what does feel right it doesn't matter. They should be given the space and support to explore what their identity is without abuse and without being victimised.

Im interested in whether we would have such a hung verdict if the person at the heart of this identified as female or whether we would agree that if she says she was assaulted we believe her (often said on this site when someone discloses), and that she used the best strategy available to her at that time.

Literally no one is saying that she wasn't assaulted.

People are, however, suggesting that it is highly unlikely that a retaliatory punch was "the best strategy available to her". This is borne out by the fact that she is now in a lot of trouble, and that the school now have an excuse not to address the original bullying incident.

The situation is also clouded by the OP's apparent belief that e.g. "misgendering" is bullying, and that her child deserves extra leniency because she is trans-identified. Posters are responding to that context as well as the central bullying incident.

to see a parenting forum en masse essentially saying ‘be less weird’, ‘be more resilient’ ‘don’t fight back’ etc makes me really angry

I get this, but I think people are disagreeing about the best tactics to use when someone is bullied, not the fundamental question of whose fault it is. All advice aimed at preventing assault or protecting someone can read as victim-blaming, but often it isn't. Genuine question - would you tell a kid it was the right thing to fight back?

If you're surrounded by a large, hostile group, violence is never the best strategy.

It could only succeed if you're a massive hulk and the others are all much smaller/weaker ... in which case, your choice to harm them would be questionable.

I haven't seen anybody disbelieving the child's story, and replies have taken into account her age & size.

Without knowing the people involved, I imagine the biggest stumbling block here is the ASD. Autism often attracts trouble, and autistic people can be hampered by limitations in social comprehension. This makes it even more important to coach ASD children in sane & reasonable ways to deal with difficult situations.

The concept of self defence is not a carte blanche to use any level of violence you want to. Here we are told that 11 year old girls used nasty words (no physical response justified though may be bullying), then one girl hit a boy 3 years older than her. A modest physical response is justified only if that's essential to get away or avoid a further attack. Any person, whatever sex, can't launch a retaliatory attack at that point unless it's necessary for actual defence. the question is whether the OPs child overstepped the mark. A punch does rathet sound more than self defence. That's not about a trans identity. But the OPs child does need to go into being trans with your eyes open and males are responded to more harshly when they use violence because as a group they do more damage. If you say you're a boy, you will get the bad, as well as some of the good associated with that.

In my experience people like this year 7 girl know how to pick out vulnerable/socially awkward people to target. Sometimes adults will victim blame these targets because when the bullying keeps happening, "can't you just get on with people?"

I do agree that there needs to be teaching of good coping strategies but there also needs to be competent adults around them for them to work.

It absolutely can be; I was bullied for years and it stopped the minute I hit her back. DS had a similar situation, the teachers even said with him that the bully deserved it. I’m not someone who advocates violence typically and this is the one and only time that either DS or I have hit anyone but in that situation it was the right thing to do.

I have, however, used breakaway techniques and ‘holds’ when dealing with people who have persistently sexually assaulted me in public and again, this stopped them in their tracks.

I’ve also used my words at other times which has worked with some people and not others, hence the scenarios above.

Yes there is a range of strategies, violence isn’t the only answer but enabling bullies to continue to be emotionally and physically abusive by minimizing the emotional and physical impact of it is certainly not helpful (for example ‘teenagers say unkind things sometimes)

@Superscientist, my sister also 'identified' as a boy - in the 60s-70s, so there were no confounding genderist theories to deal with. She used a boy's name, had her hair cut to a typically boy-like style, and wore boys' clothing. Nobody made a fuss about it either way, and she was delighted when strangers thought she was my parents' son.

When puberty started, she gradually morphed into more of a female style (still not typical; she was very avant-garde) and ended up as a more feminine woman than me. It all progressed very naturally.

It could well be my age talking, but I do think the 1970s/80s gender-bending approach was easier and healthier than what we have now. There were systemic mis-steps: unisex changing rooms and hospital wards were as big a mistake the first time round, and the paedophile movement successfully manipulated LGB tolerance as MAPs are trying to now. But for the average family, it was all about letting young people explore their potentials. By comparison, I find genderism extremely intolerant of diversity.

[Diversion - this is a general comment, not directly relevant to OP's child]

Thing is you have stupid asshole year 7 girl/s think she’s Billy big balls and picks on the easy target. The little ftm with the hat..

She hits the collar bone. Of said boy.

This year 10 boy (if we follow self id etc) then hits a year 7 girl in the face. Not the arm not the stomach a jaw shot.

If you want to be a boy or man then you need to accept that hitting girls and women is seen as a huge no no because generally boys/men are bigger and stronger and also here the boy is actually older. You can’t have it both ways frankly.

Want the recognition of being male but the protection of being female.

I'm exasperated 😂 So here are some tried, tested & recommended things you can do when being hassled by a hostile person or group. In no particular order, and without claim of completeness:

• Shout GET AWAY, GET OFF ME, HELP I'M BEING ATTACKED
• Push your aggressor away, both hands to chest or shoulders
• Snarl with threat. Takes practice, may be unsuitable for ASD child
• Attempt conversation: You don't like my hat? OK, why's that a big deal?
• Grab your friends and barge through crowd
• Recruit more friends and surround gang. Act threatening
• Do something totally unexpected. Break into song, dance, laughter
• Shrug. "Yeah, whatever. Nice try. See ya!"
• Learn restraint holds and use them with warning.

A child with ASD might need some help to identify how close is too close, how to expand personal space before assuming danger, and how to convey confidence.

to see a parenting forum en masse essentially saying ‘be less weird’, ‘be more resilient’ ‘don’t fight back’ etc makes me really angry

Look, I get it. It shouldn't be this way. People should be able to be authentically themselves and everyone should accept everyone. No one should be bullied, for any reason. Not be cause they are short, or ginger, or have a bad haircut, or cheap shoes, or because they have BO or because their mum has died or because they are Asian or because they are autistic or not very clever or too clever or trans.

I wish the world was like that. I will strive to make the world like that. My own children know that while they need not be everyone's friend, there is no need for nastiness. My daughter lost all her friends in year 8 because she refused to shun the autistic girl who started sitting at their lunch table.

But the world is cruel, especially at secondary school. It's much more forgiving at primary, and at sixth form, and it's positively supportive for many at uni. But secondary school is hard for kids who stand out. So yes, one way of coping is to be happily weird - like my son - so you are unbullyable about it. Because bullies drop bullying lines all the time, to a wide range of people....and they carry on bullying those who react. If you are quite happy to be flamboyantly gay like Everybody Loves Jamie when you are called a "gay boy" or "batty" you just grin and say "sure am, darling!". Well that isn't much fun. If you run away crying or start yelling and screaming that's much more rewarding to the bully. And so they will go it again, and again.

Another way of coping is to try to fit in if you can by being as ordinary as you can make yourself. It's dreadful and it shouldn't be necessary, but it's not only autistic kids or trans kids who do this. Everyone masks to a certain extent. The kids pretending to be interested in football or Taylor Swift or whatever is the "socially acceptable, run of the mill" opinion. In my day the boys who didn't know who they were meant to like all liked U2. They were the "safe" choice. It was ever thus.

Resilience comes in many forms. It can be in the form of genuinely not giving a fuck. It can be in the form of flying under the radar until you are in a safer space. It can be in the form of pretending you don't give a fuck. It can even be in fighting back, but only where the parties are generally equal or the "victim" is the less equal. Where the "victim" fights back against a foe who is perceived as more vulnerable - younger, sillier, female - that can lead to unexpected complexities, as it has here. Actually OP's child is highly vulnerable and perceived as such or year 7 kids wouldn't dare even approach them let alone take the mick.

As parents we have to prepare our kids for the world as it is, not as it should be. It's shitty and it's not right, but vulnerable kids are imo better served by being prepared and armed as best they can be, than by being assured that they can just go ahead and be who they are unfiltered, and adults around will step in to protect them repeatedly. It does kids a disservice I think, to allow that kind of naiveity and not prepare our vulnerable kids for reality at all.

Resilience comes in many forms. It can be in the form of genuinely not giving a fuck. It can be in the form of flying under the radar until you are in a safer space. It can be in the form of pretending you don't give a fuck. It can even be in fighting back, but only where the parties are generally equal or the "victim" is the less equal

Beautiful post, @AlantheDog.