Assault/suspension/trans child

[Stressedgiraffe]

I need some outside views.
My ds was suspended.
These care the facts

Incident 1 - AM T and two of his friends were taking shelter from the rain during morning break.

They were accosted by a large group of year 7 girls who were making derogatory slurs, being intimidating and making threats.

A girl said "Why are you wearing that hat, you freak". T replied, "It's raining".

At this point t took out his phone. The girl then said words along the lines of "why are you taking photos of me T**y" and other threats and slurs

The girl then punched down on to T's collar bone leaving a mark and broken skin while using hate speech term for a protected characteristic Ty

T's responded defensively with a partially closed hand push to the girls lower left jaw.

At this point friends took T to Ace, where he had to wait 10 minutes or more to be seen by a teacher She appeared to be already aware of the incident and sent T to ISR.

There appears to be little attempt to corroborate the incident from T and friends Rather relying on the words of a much larger group who were being intimidating to a marginalised and minority protected characteristic.

Incident 2 - PM
On attempting to leave at the end of the school day , T And friends were accosted again just prior to the school gate. A mixed age group of girls with what appears to be a sixth former participating.

One girl lunged at T pulling his hat and hair. The hat fell into a muddy puddle. This hat is very new and a comfort gift to T from his mother.

As T went to retrieve the hat from the puddle, the girl attempted to grab it as well, this action of her's caused her to hit into T's left hand where he was holding his phone.

The girl then proceeded to shout. "Did you see that SHE hit me" repeatedly.

The group then broke into two, with the Sixth Former and several other following T and his friends making threats and using derogatory hate speech.

His friends took him to where his mother was parked and asked that T get a lift as he was afraid for tanks safety and this group as around 5 meters from hid friends mothers car.

Friend's mother then drove him home.

As you can see from the two incidents, these were NOT initiated by T also there appears to be little in the way of quizzing his friends about their version of events, rather relying on others words.

This is deeply concerning, especially as T is physically small and continues to receive hate speech and intimidation whilst at High School as well as receiving harassment and threats whilst on school grounds.

They are threatening to exclude him. Wtf do we do?

They are saying “comfort hat” as though this was a special thing, in a denigrating way. It’s disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise.

A hat that was bought as a comfort gift (e.g. to cheer someone up) may just be a nice hat. Or it might be a hat with sensory attributes that comforts an autistic person. We don’t know either way.

Yeah, I agree with you.

I can’t abide bullies of any kind.

Slightly OT but OP may I ask - do you think it is possible that rather than being born in the wrong body, your child is actually an ND girl who is struggling with teenage emotions/hormones? Or do you believe 100% that you gave birth to a son? Genuine question.

Me neither. Arseholes.

*A year 10 boy of 5ft is going to be far stronger than a year 7 girl of any height.

You know this. You know that your child is actually female, and thus much less strong than a year 10 boy (hence refering to their size and height as mitigation for the fact they punched a younger girl).

You know your child's sex, yet you think it is hate speech for teachers and children to know your child's sex? This is setting a terrible example for your child growing up.*

This is well put by @Cauliflowery and I completely agree.

Average 15yo female height is 5ft3. So op's child is "tiny" for a boy, but not for a girl. I think op's repetition of how tiny T is, is op trying to say that T shouldn't be punished as a boy would be for punching.

It's a good point many have made on here, that "living as a boy" includes learning that punching a girl is a blanket no-no, regardless of provocation.

I don't think anyone is reading it as meaning a special hat that has specific sensory qualities for autistic people. Is that even a thing? If so I've never seen one and I know plenty of kids with ASD.

The entire bullying incident started because the bullies said "why are you wearing that hat you freak". The mother is particularly upset about the hat being thrown into a puddle as it was a comfort gift and so had extra special meaning for the child. Referring to it as a "comfort hat" is completely accurate. The context surrounding it suggests that the hat is making the child look more "out of place" and "different" than if they weren't wearing a hat. Rightly or wrongly the suggestion is that if the child wants to reduce attention being placed on their appearance they might not want to wear a hat that makes them look out place. I don't think this is a misreading of the OP (although admittedly it was extremely difficult to follow).

Again, other people are calling it a “comfort hat” as though that were a thing, or a weird thing. Questioning what one is. That was what I was calling out. The kid was wearing a hat that was a present.

I haven't said whether I think it should or shouldn't be the law. I was just wondering at which point a child's intent to do something was considered genuine intent and not just childish fantasy.

I do worry that given how socially immature and naive a lot of autistic teenagers are, they are even less likely than average to be able to make mature, intentional decisions about future gender reassignment.

My choice at that age, given the lack of 'ordinary' friends who would give me the time of day, was to team up with the very odd evangelical girl in my year and go with her to rabble-rousing 'Come up and be baptised! Hear the call of the Lord!' rallies. Blows my mind now to think of it. At one point I seriously contemplated a life as a nun and a vow of eternal celibacy and if DH doesn't stop snoring I might consider it again).

I've got more used to the world with age. I think this child needs protecting from bullies AND from rash teenage decisions.

I think calling it a comfort hat reflects the context in which it was given. It appears to be something that stands out and draws attention to the child but they want to wear it despite this as it brings them comfort. Some people are suggesting that the OP is not helping her child by giving them a comfort object that is so obvious and draws unwanted attention. It seems to be what started the entire incident.

That's a good point, and a fiddle toy in a pocket might be a better option.

As I understand it the DC here has the protective characteristics of

• disability
• sex (DC is female)
• Gender reassignment

Any bullying is awful. Bullying someone with protected characteristics raises the bar further.

DC still shouldn't punch younger children on the jaw. School needs to investigate and treat all parties fairly as per their discipline code.

I think that makes a long of sense though. The "ordinary" friends wouldn't accept you so you were drawn to somewhere that you could get a deep sense of belonging. It was the sense of belonging that drew you in, rather than you having a religious conversion experience. I suspect that a lot of teen girls, especially ND girls, are drawn to the trans community for the very same reason. We just need to make sure that these girls still have the option of opting out in later life. Not being harmed by puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, breast binders or surgery.

It must have been a slightly unusual hat to have prompted "why are you wearing that hat you freak".

The bullies are very much in the wrong. In an ideal utopian world, kids wouldn't take notice of other kids wearing/doing unusual things.

But as a mum, I'd be pragmatic. If you want to give your child something to comfort them, don't give them something that will invite unwelcome comments. I'd say the hat caused more discomfort than comfort on that day

It really doesn't have to be an unusual hat for this to occur. Bullies don't need something to be extreme to bully.

Agree with above. It sounds like this horrible group have made her a target.

My eight year old son and his mate were being bullied and getting hit repeatedly. The trouble was they were responding and hitting back. The boys were all the same age. Sen issues involved.

The problem is the teachers weren't always there to see what happened and it was often he said this and he said that.

It wasn't until DS stopped hitting back that it started being taken more seriously. At age eight.

The OPs daughter is fifteen. Even with SEN needs a fifteen year old knows not to hit another child otherwise it escalates. When you have a 15 year old who is punching children younger than them it's always going to be an issue. Especially if that girl wants to be treated like a boy.

And hey presto a fifteen year old boy hitting a younger girl suddenly starts going on about their SEN needs and how tiny they are when there's an issue about their behaviour too.

Let me stress this - eight year old boys who are being assessed for SEN are not expected to hit each other even where bullying is involved. They are supposed to go through due process and the proper challenges because hitting people is not ok.

My expectation is therefore a 15 year old girl - who is deemed capable enough to have capacity to demand everyone to call them a boy - is also capable of understanding that you don't hit girls younger than you even if they are hitting you and bullying you. Because this is the expectation level expected for eight year old boys who have suspected SEN needs.

All this 'but hate crime' stuff is just a distraction from this.

As for 'misgendering'. I'm not really into compelled speech. Besides either the daughter has capacity to understand trans issues and is emotionally mature enough to understand that 15 year old boys really can't hit younger girls under any circumstances or the daughter doesn't have the capacity to regulate their emotions and understand that hitting is not ok even in these circumstances and if that is the case they certainly dont have the capacity to understand trans issues yet the OP is complicit and facilitating this. You don't get to pick and choose where it's an issue and when it's not an issue to suit your needs.

It sounds massively like this kid has massive issues but the OP is part of the problem and isn't safeguarding appropriately and then is expecting everyone else to safeguard around the gaps at risk to themselves of being accused of not accepting their daughter as male. It's not going to work because the conversations that need to be had aren't being had. Even simple ones like "if you are a boy, even if you are being hit you can not hit younger girls back - you need to remove yourself from the situation and report accordingly otherwise you are going to end up in situations which put you at greater risk and you have less come back about the situation" just as my eight year old son has been taught, that you can't just punch another kid back even if they hit you because you risk getting yourself into shit even if that's not fair.

My eight year old.

So yeah, I I would say the same even if it wasn't trans because of the level of behaviour expected from my primary school aged child who is being assessed for ADHD. HTH.

There seem to be three different issues at play here. 1 - was the bullying of OP's child OK? 2 - was the response from OP's child OK? And 3 - is OP's response OK? It is perfectly possible for a sensible answer to all of them to be "no".

Unless I've missed something (which is perfectly possible) I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it was OK for the OP's child to be bullied. Some people seem to have interpreted the suggestion that she should learn to "deal with" bullies as equivalent to saying she should "suck it up". But that is clearly not what it was intended to mean. Frankly, any responsible parent does their best to prepare their children to encounter a less-than-perfect world and respond to it in a way that protects and empowers them (or at least minimises further harm). Should we try to teach our pretty balayaged girls to "deal with" sexual assault? Of course we fucking should, in the same way that we would try to teach them to "deal with" injury or bereavement or indeed everything from minor inconvenience to catastrophe. Learning to respond appropriately to horrible things is crucial, and accepting that these things sometimes happen is a basic necessary step. That is NOT the same thing as saying they should happen, or that we should not do our best to prevent them.

Equally, it is entirely reasonable to say that OP's child should not have responded in the way she did, and that it is appropriate for her to go through a disciplinary process. The school has a responsibility to treat her fairly, and to take into account the context of what happened, but it should not handwave away any act of violence.

Finally, lots of posters have identified that the OP's response is unhelpful, and likely to reinforce the child's anxiety. There does seem to be a suggestion that the OP feels that her child should be entitled to special treatment because of her "protected characteristic" (which in fact is a red herring, since the protections of the Equality Act cover both the possession and non-possession of any characteristic, it is intended to prevent discrimination), and that "misgendering" is hate speech, which it emphatically is not. It is in no way anti-trans to point out that trans people should have exactly the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else.

Most importantly, though, the OP minimises her child's responsibility in all this - and while being partisan is a normal part of being a parent, if the child feels like nothing is her fault, it deprives her of any sense of agency. If she thinks of herself as an eternal victim then she will never feel in control or capable, she will be entirely at the mercy of everyone else, forever - and this ties into the trans identification, because if her sense of self and happiness depends on the validation of everyone around her she is setting herself up for a life of misery and anxiety. She needs to take responsibility for what she does, says and thinks - which IS within her control - and recognise that everything else is not, and all she can do is learn to deal with it.

Have I misunderstood the post? Wasn’t OPs child hit? And surrounded by a large group of other children?

In that case, yes I wouldn’t blame anyone for throwing punches, it’s a scary situation to be in. I’ve seen noses, jaws and a cheekbone broken in mob mentality situations at school.

I mean, I totally side with protecting women’s spaces etc and how damaging this can be for kids. I generally agree with Mumsnets views on this.

But to say there isn’t transphobia in these threads is a little disingenuous. I’ve seen a couple of questionable comments, although many more reasonable ones

If I was surrounded by a mob of people ideally I'd walk my way out, shove my way out if necessary but can easily imagine panicking and lashing out. I don't feel sorry at all for the year 7 who got hit.

Exactly.

Imagine in two or three years time, the OPs daughter is out in the real world.

A group start on her and one hits her.

If she hits back, she risks it escalating and potentially someone pulling a knife or worse.

If she hits back, who is to say what a police response might be. Imagine the initial punch isn't seen on CCTV but the retaliation is. Where does that leave the OPs daughter. Especially if those starting on the OP are still minors and the daughter is an adult. Add into that the male/female factor.

We teach boys to walk away from similar situations for a reason. We teach them not to get involved or to try de-escalation strategies. Even if they are not in the wrong.

In this case it's further complicated by the trans thing.

What happens if the other kids parents complain about their child coming home with a massive bruise? The kid lies and tells their parents they didn't do anything wrong. School can't prove the kid is lying.

The situation on paper is a girl in yr7 being hit by a boy in yr10 if we are all affirmation only and we must not misgender. The school can't tell the parents of the yr7 kid that the child in yr10 is trans cos 'safeguarding' on principle. On paper they have to deal with the situation accordingly.

The fact that the daughter is 5'2" is irrelevant. The fact the daughter has autism is effectively irrelevant. Because of safeguarding the yr7.

This is why it's so fucked up and it's really not in the interests of a vulnerable child for a parent to be militant about using the 'correct' pronouns and insisting the school must treat their child as the opposite sex.

The OP and her daughter needs to grips with the reality of this when complaining about misgendering or how vulnerable the daughter is. Or they need to go down the line that the trans issue IS an issue and that maybe the teachers are misgendering because they see this as a safeguarding issue in itself and it's in the best interests of the daughter to make the point they are a girl and not a boy.

And that it is NEVER a good idea to hit back unless it's a matter of thinking you are at risk of being killed or raped and you can't walk away. If you can walk away that's what you do. Even if it's not fair. Even if it's inconvenient. Even if it's not your fault.

Because life is unfair. It sucks. And your response does matter because their are real world consequences which might make a situation worse or it might backfire on you in some way.

You learn to manage the risk and to navigate situations which are difficult even if it's not ideal because the world is not ideal.

Agree with RTB.

Also - permanent exclusion for this offence? Either there's a hell of a lot more to it that the OP isn't saying admitting to herself or the permanent exclusion isn't true.

Fundamentally your daughter can't have it both ways OP. Either he's a boy and he's going to have to face the consequences of a 15 year old male punching an 11 year old female or she's a 5ft tiny female and she needs to learn to deal with others recognising her as her sex.

Focus on behaviour and needs of your child NOT identity issues and not the actions of other children.

And go from there.

The biggest problem with the trans mess is we fail to do this. We instead look for someone to blame and the fact things aren't 'fair' rather than living in the real world which isn't perfect and we just have to manage the situation as best we can.

You can't use trans as something to hide behind and shout 'transphobia' about. Because it's ridiculous and totally detached from reality on multiple levels.

Erm, surely sex is a protected characteristic for all involved - the y7s were all female too? were any of them ASD? Though sex as a protected characteristic applies equally to males. Also the reason for the bullying was not due to the Op’s child being female it was apparently the trans identity so sex discrimination is not an issue here. Presumably the child does not have a gender reassignment certificate either??
You can’t just tick all the potential boxes a person may fit into and decide all forms of discrimination apply.

There should not have been bullying, ganging up and physical violence on any side. They all deserve a bollocking and those who flung punches (on both sides) need a more serious punishment. ASD is neither a reason nor an excuse for bullying and violence.