Really horrible problem, but desperate for help!

[Molesdigginholes]

DS is 3. Have been trying to toilet train him for a while, had success with wee but not with poo, he just soils himself.

My problem is when trying to clean him up he starts being really stupid. Not sure if through embarrassment but he starts giggling and trying to lean on me, not supporting his weight at all, roaming around and not standing still. This means poo ends up everywhere. He also sometimes puts his hands to his bottom and gets poo on them and wipes on me 🤢

The more annoyed I get the funnier he seems to find it so I need to approach this differently - but how?

Great if he loves sticker charts and some kids do. But at this age and with this amount of challenge I'd go big on bribery and buy a tonne of Hot Wheels or fidget toys or playmobil people or whatever he's into and for every single calm bum change he would be getting an immediate and motivating reward. Good luck!

If you’ve already had 3 professionals advice why are you asking randoms on the internet what to do? Keep going with what the professionals say in that case. The general consensus on potty training is if they don’t crack it at least within the first month then stop and try again later down the line. That’s what all the professionals I’ve ever come across have said. But you do it your way

Here's hoping it works!! Have everything crossed for you. Honestly when people sell parenting they don't ever suggest the crap you'll have to deal with...quite genuinely in your case!!! What a glamorous role parenthood is.

He is THREE YEARS OLD. control him! That is all there is to it. Why is that a pointless thing to say? He is THREE. He is NOT in charge!

Whoever said pooing on the potty usually comes first??!

My son was totally potty trained for urine MONTHS before we finally cracked pooing...in fact, it took the promise of goldfish (like Peppa pig's, goldie and ginger no less!) to convince him.

I'd be getting him to clean up - if not poo for hygiene reasons that say 'I need to clean your poo so you need to do XYZ for me, if you don't then no telly for rest of the day' etc

Basically you need a consequence that'll wipe the smile off his face and make him take it seriously

Top tip - even when you've cleaned your hands thoroughly and repeatedly, a whiff can linger - rub toothpaste over then rinse, it'll shift it!

A Bristol Stool Chart is your friend here.

Op: I have a problem
@GreenRaven : solve your problem!

I think she was looking for something more specific

DCat is smaller than OP's three-year-old and I can't control DCat. What chance does OP have of controlling a faeces-covered child if I can't control DCat?

Honestly I know I'm repeating other posters but it doesn't matter that the professionals say about it's working for your child - it's not working for you.
Don't keep doing the same thing and expecting a new result. If he's not bothered about going back to nappies, and you're not bothered either, then just do it.
We waited 6 months and tried again, and things were a lot better (not perfect)
Yes the prevailing wisdom is that you are failing as a parent and setting your child up badly for their life if they aren't toilet trained by 2, but your stress levels are telling you to trust yourself.
Good luck!

Can you find some really cheap pants and keep some scissors handy in the bathroom/your bag then lay him down and cut the sides and proceed like they're a nappy then bin. If he's not standing that cuts out the leaning and walking.

I'm sorry, this sounds tough. At home, I would either lie him down to change him or clean him up in the bath. Contains the mess and makes it harder for him to get to you. Out and about, I would do as a poster above suggested and just go straight home if this happens, if you can - no playground, trip out or whatever you are doing. Once he realises that he won't be able to do fun stuff if he does this, he might stop.

I’ve had professional advice about potty training

I am not asking about that. I’m asking about this issue which has only been an issue for the past couple of weeks or so. When I started potty training it didn’t seem to go well and nursery advised to continue. Then he ‘got’ wee but not poo and I asked the HV.

Thanks all, I’m not actually seeking opinions on whether to go back to nappies or not. Even if we did go back to them and I don’t think that’s a good idea poo would still be an issue.

Sorry, I’ve only had chance to read the first page, so this might not be helpful, but I just thought I’d offer my own experiences in solidarity. So a few things. Firstly, this sounds exactly like the sort of thing my now five year old did at 3. He went through nearly two years (and still only just emerging from it) of really silly, challenging, often disgusting or dangerous behaviours. The issue would change but it was just so hard work, depressing and worrying. But he did come out of the other side. I would definitely say to consider it embarrassment and immaturity controlling and regulating emotion. Lots of the previous posters suggestions would be helpful for a more typical child but obviously you’ve tried all of that and it’s not working. On a practical front I would definitely go with lying down changes, holding his hands down and out of the way and just being well prepared and swift so you can do it quickly with one hand. You just want it done and over before it can escalate. I’m not in favour of making it about punishments or star charts etc because there is obviously something else going on and he needs your compassion to try to find out what it is.
For us, it was the same, wees fairly reliable and poos much slower. I had him more or less trained and then he started a preschool and there were just horrendous accidents all the time. I realised he was allergic to cows milk and that when they say for a milk and fruit it was then more or less exactly three hours till explosive diarrhoea. We stopped that and things improved radically. I gradually worked out what he could and couldn’t tolerate. My second child also had the allergy and so I was swifter to eliminate but she drinks lots of oat milk and I’m now trying to train her and have to limit her intake of it a bit as she’d rather have that than solids and it gives her v sloppy poo. So there may be some dietary reason that you need to puzzle out that’s making his poo come quicker or more forcefully than he can manage in terms of getting to the toilet on time.
Or he may have an aversion to pooing on the potty or toilet and this isn’t uncommon at all. Something I’ve heard people trying is to gradually withdraw the safety of the nappy. I think this is easiest if their pops are at a predictable time. Maybe he goes back into pull ups, not as a punishment or shame or anything like just, just a practical response for you as you can’t carry on like this as the washing will be horrendous and it isn’t clean or a nice experience for either of you. Once he’s done that days poo in a pull up, then he can go back in underpants for the rest of the day. Then, when he has the pull up, if you see him straining or starting to need it, you can rush him to the bathroom or potty to strentghen the association. Then if you can get there in time, gradually pull back the pull up so he’s for example, pooing on the potty but wearing the pull up, then doing it with the pull up side ripped off, then doing it with the pull up off but lining the potty and so on. See if removing the anxiety and mess and failure can reset things a bit.
I thing something to break the current habit will help. Perhaps find a song if he likes that and play it on your phone or sing it. Something toilet related and the same one every time to give him a positive focus away from him current game. You also can’t shout when you’re singing so it will help you to stay in control too.
we did get through it and mine now more or less poos like an entirely typical five year old though still odd accidents that I think are due to allergy/excitement about leaving his okay/anxiety in new situations about where the toilet is. Mine has ended up being a very bright but emotionally complicated little boy. So ignore posters who offer advice like ‘you’re in charge so make him behave’ etc. Some children are just a lot trickier than others and need something a bit different. You sound like a lovely mum who, like me with my first, just had to work harder to love and support your child. You’ll get there.

Sorry, scrolling back up thread and seeing lots of advice about bribes/rewards punishment. I really really wouldn’t go that way. By all means make a really big encouraging fuss when he does it right, but it sounds to me as if he (for whatever emotional or physical reason) is not yet able to do this, so you wouldn’t punish a child in a wheelchair for not being able to run around and it is the same thing. I am a special needs teacher and so am speaking with some degree of professional authority, but mainly as a bedraggled mum who has been through a similar demoralising journey. Just offer him unconditional love and acceptance while continuing, as calmly as is humanly possible when a three year old is trying to smear poo on you and themselves etc, how and why we don’t do that. Positively distract if possible and problem solve why it’s happening. It sounds as if you’re already on the detective work with thinking it might be about attention going to a younger sibling or emotional issues stemming from preschool. But associating his failure to potty train on time with Shane is definitely just setting up future problem and not going to help. Children who are ashamed and feel unloved will typically then behave badly so the situation with escalate and spiral.
Also, on the poster who suggested additional q needs. My son is very bright and I don’t think has ASD, but I do some times dip into resources designed for children with autism as they can be helpful. I don’t believe there is a harsh dividing line between those with special needs or neurodiverse and those who are ‘typical’. I think we all need extra or different support at times. Good luck!

Children who are ashamed and feel unloved will typically then behave badly so the situation with escalate and spiral.

Two good posts but this did stand out to me. Thank you.

Not read the full thread I wonder if he has some sort of additional needs. My dc have adhd and they took a long, long time to potty train and his behaviour when trying to clean him up is reminiscent. Sticker charts worked a treat for mine as they understood rewards but they weren't reliably trained until just before they went to school.

Can he go into pull ups while out and about so it's easier to clean up?

I really don’t think pull ups would make any difference, as he - not always - got poo on his bottom that needs wiping off.

As I said, the problem is apparently the relationship. Where and how is he getting the impression that he is the one in control? He needs to know he isn't in control. He needs to know his parents are. The parents ARE in control of his life, his whole life, not just this aspect of it. That does not seem to have been established in his mind. This is a bigger problem than just poo.

Op says he doesn't respond to being spoken to "sternly" - so he needs to be disciplined without a stern voice then. I would hazard a guess that what the OP means is that she shouts and he laughs. Shouting in that situation is not demonstrating control. And a child of 3 is going to be further emotionally aroused by experiencing further loss of control from the person who is his emotional anchor in the world.

This sounds like a very deep rooted issue in the relationship and needs addressing, but not from the bum washing perspective.

??????? what does your cat have to do with it? That is not related in any way shape or form.

Generally I am not a shouter. I say generally as I have sometimes raised my voice but it’s not usual practice for me.

If you do the eye contact, stern voice, I mean this sort of thing, he laughs. I don’t necessarily think it means he finds it funny (although hard to say for sure) but it certainly isn’t effective. As I said above he does respond more to carrot than sticks.

To illustrate that you are being unreasonable in just saying "control him". What is she meant to do? Duct tape him to the wall?

Well exactly. Nearly as helpful as ‘parent him.’

To be fair it is the sort of thing I’d have thought before I had my own children and have since realised a) it’s hard work and b) other people’s suggestions and perspectives are so helpful.

This is brilliant advice.

I've found children react best and change their behaviour quickly with rewards.

He needs to understand that pooing in pants is wrong and pooing in the loo gets a reward - choose something instant that you can give when he's done what you want him to.

no, I mean build up a relationship with him so that he knows he has to cooperate. The problem is not the poo cleaning. It is the relationship. I don't actually think he finds it funny. I think he thinks he is in some sort of power struggle, where laughter is his weapon. He does not want to be in a power struggle. he wants clear, safe, boundaries. he wants mum to be in charge.