Really horrible problem, but desperate for help!

[Molesdigginholes]

DS is 3. Have been trying to toilet train him for a while, had success with wee but not with poo, he just soils himself.

My problem is when trying to clean him up he starts being really stupid. Not sure if through embarrassment but he starts giggling and trying to lean on me, not supporting his weight at all, roaming around and not standing still. This means poo ends up everywhere. He also sometimes puts his hands to his bottom and gets poo on them and wipes on me 🤢

The more annoyed I get the funnier he seems to find it so I need to approach this differently - but how?

Do you have a bath in the same room as toilet, I'd lift him straight off the toilet and deal with him in the bath if so........although I do have the 'look' ......perfected when my three boys were little. He definitely needs to learn to respect you, has to know your 'in charge' otherwise you'll have worse problems as he gets older and bigger and you can't physically pick him up!💐

It's a minefield isn't it.

Have you tried going in there and not reacting at all? I'm almost loathe to even suggest it as I'm a bit traumatised from when my mum used to do it*. There's something extremely disconcerting and threatening about an adult who is determinedly silent, getting on with a task without eye contact or speaking at all. It wouldn't take my two long to realise something was very very wrong if I behaved like that. That's why I suggest if he does then start to cooperate in anyway, you then reward him with eye contact/verbally noting that he stood still (even if it's just for a moment) and show that he will ONLY get mummy's attention if he's acting corporately.

*it was used too often in our house, and not as a last resort for extreme situations. As a result I've spent quite a few years trying to stop being a people pleaser to the level where it's detrimental to my own mental health. But that's not to say that in extreme situations it's not something worth trying.

I know but that only works when we’re at home. Plus I’m a bit worried that it would be seen as a ‘reward’ as he likes baths and showers. Arghh.

I never thought I’d have problems having a firm but fair respectful sort of environment but here I am gives no f*xks.

@Beansandneedles i actually tried that yesterday more because I was so upset and disgusted I didn’t trust myself not to completely lose it with him but he just ups the behaviour to a point you can’t ignore it.

I'd be seeing the GP to see if they'd why he's struggling to toilet train. None of .y bots poes have ever been than runny since weaning unless ill

It’s not exactly runny. I don’t really want the thread to turn into graphic descriptions of poo though!

I read 'calmer happier easier parenting' and they do say that sometimes the behaviour will get worse before it improves as they try to test your will.

If it gets worse, could you just leave the room? I know your bathroom might be in a tremendous state afterwards if you did that, but perhaps rather than reacting to it if you remove yourself from the scenario and say you'll come back in when he's ready to cooperate that would help?!

He sounds like an extremely determined individual. Sending you all the love and strength I can throw across the internet!

Don't do this, whatever you do. Don't even threaten it.

Thanks @Beansandneedles … I’m pretty sure he’d just follow me and then get poo EVERYWHERE.

I really don’t know wtf has got into him.

You mentioned preschool, so guessing he spends some time there at least once a week. Could you ask them how they deal with it? He may or may not need toileting and help during the time he is there.
Having a consistent approach might help.

I think it's tricky as whilst he needs to be aware of germs it's the sort of thing that he may well repeat out of context, or get fixated on. Is there any gain in talking about being (and I confess I hate the phrase) "a big boy now" and reinforcing that babies can't help wiggling but big boys can, or something that encourages more sensible behaviour along those lines? Again, this might be something preschool could offer some suggestions on.

Thanks @TeabySea . He does poo his pants at preschool sometimes, though it is more usual for it to be saved for me, but he just legs them clean it up. I definitely get the horrible silly behaviour. I know it’s attention seeking but honestly … it’s horrible.

It’s hard because ideally I’d talk to him about it when we’re both calm but it’s always difficult having a conversation with him.

Is his bum sore? Causing the wiggling and moving around? Maybe the wet wipes are slightly painful or uncomfortable?

No, I’m positive it’s silly behaviour but particularly horrible silly behaviour.

it doesn't sound like the changing is the probelm, tbh, it sounds like it is your whole relationship. Would you agree?

I wonder if he feels like he has no control over his poo and his behaviour is him trying to get some control.

Can you chat to the health visitor and see of they have any tips. Thru usually recommend the Eric website for toilet problems.

I had a 3 year old who was difficult to toilet train. He loved animals so I got a tube of plastic animals from the Early Learning Centre and said they were special presents for big boys who did poos in the toilet. He really wanted those animals and was sorted in a few days. At the moment he is getting a reward from being naughty and winding you up, so my thinking is substitute a better reward for being good. To me this sounds like a time to resort to bribery. At least it would give you an alternative to shouting to try.

Oh bless you this is challenging. My DD took a long time to get the hang of poos as well and didn’t seem bothered by poo accidents. I found it very difficult and struggled with my responses. I could see getting annoyed with her made it much worse but I found it hard to stop. I suspect he is uncomfortable with your annoyance about it and shows it in this daft way. But not saying you are doing anything wrong - they need to learn that this can’t happen and poo everywhere is grim!!

Do you do ‘touch toes’ for wiping? Use reusable wipes? If not, they are basically wet flannels which clean poo far better and more efficiently than disposables. Could you make a game where he has to touch toes and point his bum as high in the air as he can, while you quickly clean him up.

Consequence wise - I used to labour the point that getting cleaned up after a poo takes a lot longer than just going to the loo (I used to often give her a shower after), she’d be missing out on tv time etc while we did it. And if she pooed when out and about, we generally went home. Stressful, I feel for you.

Yes and no @GreenRaven

I agree we’re having a very tricky time but it isn’t all doom and gloom, there are good times and moments. But he is definitely challenging just now.

Thanks @Mairzydotes , that’s a good way to look at it. I did contact the HV team when first struggles became apparent but this is sort of more purposeful.

Thanks @Rowena191 . He doesn’t seem motivated by things like that. So if I got him sweets or toys he’d just keep whining for them not realising (apparently) he has to ‘do’ something first!

Thanks @Beginningless it’s so hard isn’t it? What turned it around for your DD?

Next time he poos his pants, say oh no accidents happen but we do poos on the toilet not in our pants.

Make him bend over and touch his toes. Stand next to him and face his bum, so you're standing at his middle if you see what I mean? Start operation clean up. If he messes around, you're placed in such a way that the second he lifts his hands off the floor, you lift him round the middle so he is completely off the floor and can't wipe poo on you. Hold him safely there, and tell him not to mess around. Put him down angled so his hands touch the floor first, and start clean up again. Lift immediately if he messes around at all.

Repeat until he is clean. Eventually it'll be boring for him.

Every morning straight after breakfast, sit him on the toilet for a poo. Sit with him with a book, and allow 15 min for him to try to poo. Repeat every morning, and give him a big reward if he does it.

For her, accidents seemed very emotions based. When she first trained she was doing ok but she seemed to get really affected when we or nursery staff were firm with her about it and had many more accidents. I think she started trying to hold in as poo became a ‘thing’ for her, so little bits of poo would come out throughout the day. We tried everything, rewards/ consequences wise, and in the end what seemed to help was absolutely no reaction ‘let’s get cleaned up’. No praise for when she did it either, all just very neutral and not a big deal. But not easy to do when it feels like a big deal. She’s a sensitive soul though and does tend to get runnier poos if upset or anxious.

Also she liked the ‘poo goes to Pooland’ app. Pps advice about putting him on potty after every meal is a good idea and you can use the app as well as a book.

Thanks. I have been following the advice online which is to stay calm and ‘never mind’ although he doesn’t seem to mind at all. Just sort of treats pants like a nappy. I do think there’s some embarrassment there as he used to tell me when he’d had a poo but now he doesn’t and denies it when you smell it and say let’s clean it up.

Look up 'Poo goes home to Pooland' - it's a story (and I think also an app now) that works like magic for a lot of children.

Thanks we’ve tried that, he doesn’t seem too engaged with it but it’s hard to say. He did have two successful poos a couple of weeks ago and I made a big fuss of him and got him a toy. But since then nothing.

I agree, don’t use this tactic and please don’t shame him.

This stage of development is about gaining his own control over himself and using his free will to decide it for himself: he needs to want to be clean.

Agree with a PP - does he have a (washable) toy he adores that he can hold and “keep clean” next time? That might help him see the benefit of keeping still.

I don’t think sticking him on a screen for this is going to solve anything in his mind about this in the long term.