Why are gender roles viewed negatively?

[reddragon7]

I read and see so many threads and real life examples, where men and women feel the need to be “equal.” The man about to become a father, refuses to become the main earner, even when he has the means, and insists that his wife also work and contribute financially. Doesn’t this seem imbalanced to anyone, and that society is being brainwashed to accept this as the norm.

I have nothing against a woman wishing to work post-children, however, I don’t understand why society and some men put pressure on their wives to work, if she would rather stay home with the children. This has now become and expectation. If a woman is contributing financially, it is never really 50/50, as she is also doing most of the domestic work.

People condemn gender roles as though they are ancient, but seem to forget that, biologically and psychologically, women are naturally better caregivers to children. They are the ones pregnant, produce all these hormones, and better equipped to raise a child than a man. Of course, there are exceptions, but as a general fact, people seem to ignore this.

In view of all this, I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway. Otherwise, it feels we are moving away from our gender roles, which may actually be more helpful in a marriage, than people make out.

Your grasp on science is about as solid as your grasp on the context of rights.

OP, you can believe whatever you like. It doesn't matter if you don't feel the need to back up your ideas with scientific evidence. You are entitled to your opinions regardless of whether you can justify them. Opinions are personal and nobody can tell you what you should think.

However, please don't state your opinions as if they are commonly acknowledged facts. It's deeply offensive. What might look like common sense to you may be regarded as dangerous bullshit by others, and if you aren't able to provide any proper evidence to back up your points, you are going to make people pretty angry by doing this.

I am not sure if English is your first language. You said that you grew up in the UK but I guess you may have spoken a different language at home. Either way, your use of language strikes me as problematic because you are not very precise about what you actually mean. For example, you state your opinions as if they are facts but then seem surprised when people ask you for evidence because it's simply what you believe. And you talk repeatedly about women having the right to be financially supported but when pushed, you clarify that this needs to be by mutual agreements and that you don't really think that these "rights" should actually be legally enforceable. And then you say repeatedly that women should have the choice to work if they want to, but then you clarify that really think they should stay at home with their children once they have them, so the choice only really applies properly before any children are born. This gives people the impression that you are constantly changing your position.

Yes, you have indeed said repeatedly that you think that women should have the choice. But you have also said that you have "no issue with it pre children" which implies that you do have an issue with it post children. And you have also said that you think it's reasonable for a man to want a woman to reduce her working hours, even if she doesn't want to, because she is the primary care giver. So can you see why some people might feel that you are not really in favour of women having the choice after all?

This is the first time I’ve made a thread on mumsnet, and quite frankly, I didn’t think everything I typed will be taken to heart. Most of what I am saying is what I personally believe. I thought it would be a somewhat light hearted discussion as I was commenting in and out of the day, without trying to think too deeply before I say anything. I guess I’ve learnt how it works now 😂

But OP, if you talk about wanting women to have specific rights, then it absolutely sounds like you want to change society. It is completely impossible for women to have those rights without changing society. Yet again, your imprecision around language is making it incredibly difficult to understand what you are actually trying to argue for!

@reddragon7 You are welcome. I totally understand where you are coming from.

The thing is, OP, this is not a light hearted topic for many of us. We really care about women's rights and freedoms, and when you state your personal opinions as if they are proven facts - which they certainly aren't - it makes people angry because you are perpetuating stereotypes that have had a negative impact on their lives.

It would be a bit like someone making a load of racist statements online, presented as if they were widely accepted facts, and then acting surprised that people didn't just see it as a harmless exchange of views.

I understand how the way I have phrased has appeared controversial, but I was just trying to express myself directly. I then had to use calmer language to ensure I wasn’t offending anyone, having to clarify these are my personal beliefs, because I didn’t think everything I said would be taken to heart, word for word. I assumed most people would know I’m speaking from opinions.

Well ,if I had the choice, I do think such a right for women would be a good thing (again, opinion). Obviously, this has to be agreed on by a couple before marriage though, to avoid future conflict.

I do think women be given the choice, but my personal opinion is that, post-children, I believe it’s better for women to stay home. Obviously, others may feel differently.

I can understand why this is has become very sensitive for others, but I thought we could just have an open discussion to share views. I didn’t mean to personally attack anyone.

Well ,if I had the choice, I do think such a right for women would be a good thing (again, opinion). Obviously, this has to be agreed on by a couple before marriage though, to avoid future conflict

This is totally contradictory though. Rights are enshrined in law, not agreed by couples! If a woman genuinely has that right, then no agreement is necessary!

But since it’s not a right, it will have to be something mutually agreed by couples. I simply feel the right would be beneficial. But since this right isn’t enforced by the government, it can only work if the couple come to an agreement.

I accept that it wasn't your intention to attack anyone. I think there could have been an open exchange of views if you had not expressed your opinions as if they were facts. People will inevitably react badly to this.

Yes, I get that. I was typing as though I was having a casual conversation with a friend, as they are the beliefs I hold, rather than trying to source and cite everything, and be careful about the terminology.

@reddragon7

When ok earth did I force homophobic changes, simply by stating I am not in support of homosexuality.

I don't think you're forcing homophobic changes .

I do think you're homophobic.

Fair enough

i couldn’t agree more

I couldn’t agree more.

OK. I'm glad that you have gained some understanding of why people have reacted angrily. Though honestly speaking, I world be quite shocked if a friend expressed that sort of opinion as fact in a normal conversation. Most people have an awareness of when they're making very controversial statements and they tend to be quite careful how they express them in my experience, unless they are actually trying to provoke a reaction or really don't care about how others feel.

Anyway, we will agree to disagree as far as the traditional gender roles are concerned. You think that they are just common sense. I think that they are deeply damaging. We are not going to find any common ground here.

Fair enough. You’re entitled to think that. I may not support homosexuality, but that’s as far as I go. I don’t then treat people in my every day life any differently, for that reason. I just don’t attend things like pride or campaign for them etc. In my job, I see a variety of people, and treatment is always the same, regardless of sexuality, gender, race etc. People’s life choices don’t make a difference to me, or dictate my attitude towards them around me, they have their own free will and choice. I may simply disagree, but that’s all. My behaviour towards them doesn’t change just because I have a different opinion.

I guess my friends and I barely have filters when discussing things. We have always been open and don’t take things too offensively. Obviously, this is an online forum, and now I realise how seriously people actually take your words. I’m sorry to have hurt anyone - I didn’t take intend it to turn that serious tbh - thought it might be interesting. I guess I know for future, how careful I must be online.

People’s life choices don’t make a difference to me, or dictate my attitude towards them around me, they have their own free will and choice.

It's my understanding though, based on your posts, that in your ideal world you would not give gay people the choice to marry as you wouldn't want same sex marriage to exist.

So while you don't have the power to enact that change, if you did you would remove an equal opportunity from gay people.

Unless I'm wrong and you would, if you had a vote on the topic for example, vote to keep same sex marriage as an option rather than abolish it? But I don't think you would.

I also discuss things very openly with my friends, OP. There are no subjects that are really off limit. However, if we are talking about a sensitive subject, I am mindful of not saying something that might unwittingly offend or upset one of them. In my experience, most people tend to take care when expressing controversial opinions - funnily enough, I suspect that the majority are much less guarded about what they say on an anonymous Internet forum than they would be in real life, because they don't know the people who they might be offending or upsetting. It is quite unusual for people to have no filter in real life.

You thought a discussion about sexism would be light hearted?

It's a serious subject and a serious issue that many women face, in and out of work.

Responding to the words you have used such as ''rights'' isn't taking things to heart, it's just a fact that words have meaning and people can't be expected to know that you didn't actually mean rights when that is exactly what you said.

The OP is “supportive of education in females” 😂😂😂😂

Jesus wept.

Taken to heart? I don't think anything is being taken to heart.
I think your positions have been challenged and debated, but that's not people taking it to heart.

I'm interested in why you thought a thread proposing that damaging stereotypes should be enshrined as rights was going to be light-hearted on a forum full of women who read dozens of threads a day where women are screwed over by gender stereotypes.