Why are gender roles viewed negatively?

[reddragon7]

I read and see so many threads and real life examples, where men and women feel the need to be “equal.” The man about to become a father, refuses to become the main earner, even when he has the means, and insists that his wife also work and contribute financially. Doesn’t this seem imbalanced to anyone, and that society is being brainwashed to accept this as the norm.

I have nothing against a woman wishing to work post-children, however, I don’t understand why society and some men put pressure on their wives to work, if she would rather stay home with the children. This has now become and expectation. If a woman is contributing financially, it is never really 50/50, as she is also doing most of the domestic work.

People condemn gender roles as though they are ancient, but seem to forget that, biologically and psychologically, women are naturally better caregivers to children. They are the ones pregnant, produce all these hormones, and better equipped to raise a child than a man. Of course, there are exceptions, but as a general fact, people seem to ignore this.

In view of all this, I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway. Otherwise, it feels we are moving away from our gender roles, which may actually be more helpful in a marriage, than people make out.

Well, I hold very strong views that men and women should take on certain roles in marriages, should they have the ability to.

That's it then, that's the real crux of it.

You do believe they "should" take on traditional gender roles. You kept saying throughout the thread that you just wanted women to have the option of not working, that they should be allowed to choose (which nobody disagrees with) but what you actually think is that they shouldn't work. You think it's morally right for them to adhere to the traditional gender role of cooking, cleaning and childcare while their male partner adheres to the traditional gender role of being breadwinner.

Your prerogative to hold that opinion but don't dress it up as you believing in women being individually empowered to make whatever choice works for them and their families.

In my ideal world, I would choose for every woman to have freedom of choice individually, including whether to work full time, part time or be a SAHM.

In your ideal world, you would choose for every woman with a child to be a SAHM. If you're honest, that's what you would choose in your ideal world.

At least own it instead of trying to dress it up as you supporting women having autonomy over their choices.

Those are my opinions though. I even said multiple times, if you have a different arrangement that works for you, that’s absolutely fine. I was referring to women who genuinely wish to stay home, but husbands refuse to support this, despite having the financial affordability, not women who are actually comfortable with their arrangements of finances/childcare. Which is why I stated the strong view of it being an obligation etc. As I have a strong of gender roles.

But honestly, if you have different opinions, I respect that - the post wasn’t targeting people who prefer different arrangements, and are happy with these.

OP.... at any point are you going to address the fact that traditional gender roles are harmful to women and equality on a group level?

OK, but can you see that that's a very circular argument... you believe in gender roles because you believe in gender roles.

You are perfectly entitled to believe whatever you like, of course. But you are unlikely to persuade anyone else with that argument.

And the fact is, increasingly few people - men or women- now believe in gender roles, so it's inevitable that fewer men will want to take on the responsibility of financially supporting his wife for the rest of her life, and fewer women will want to give up their financial independence. And they don't have to justify their rejection of gender roles any more than you need to justify your acceptance of them.

Good job they can already do that then.

I was referring to women who genuinely wish to stay home, but husbands refuse to support this, despite having the financial affordability, not women who are actually comfortable with their arrangements of finances/childcare.

Are you equally concerned about women who wish to work but are unable to as their husband refuses to share childcare responsibilities with them in order to allow that to happen?

Or is that a bit less of a concern for you because it fits with your own beliefs about gender roles, despite the fact it makes women more vulnerable?

Yeah, you're not going to get a straight answer.

It would be interesting to know if she thinks divorce is okay, given her inability to explain how it works on this scenario if one partner changes their mind.

What a load of nonsense.

I've yet to read a scientific article supporting the idea that women have a housework hormone that makes them better at wielding a hoover or that men have a special gene that makes them better workers. I work for a large company with a female CEO and CFO, both of whom have children. Why should they be at home instead?
Thankfully my DH is an enlightened man who is perfectly capable (and actively enjoys) grocery shopping, cooking, reading bedtime stories, playing with the DC etc. He even changes nappies. Who'd have thought it!
I'd never want to be financially dependent on my other half; it's just too risky plus it's not setting a good example to the DC.

Are you equally concerned about women who wish to work but are unable to as their husband refuses to share childcare responsibilities with them in order to allow that to happen?

Excellent point.
This is far more common imo

Which society are you from where traditional gender roles are strongly encouraged yet woman respected @reddragon7 ?

These are simply my opinions. I believe I prefer this. Doesn’t mean they have to. And no I don’t think they shouldn’t work, even I work myself out of choice, and would always encourage education in both males and females. I would choose that men take on more financial responsibility, so women have more flexibility in choices

I would choose that men take on more financial responsibility, so women have more flexibility in choices

I would choose that the flexibility of women's choices isn't reliant upon the goodwill of men as a whole.

That hasn't served us (women) well historically when it comes to choices.

The more expected and encouraged traditional gender roles are in a society, the less options a woman has in that society as it's not set up to encourage women to proactively prioritise their career if they so wish.

People have asked which culture you're from where apparently traditional roles are encouraged all round but women are just as respected and have just as many opportunities and choices as men. Can you share?

On the one hand, OP, you seem to be saying that it's fine for people to have different opinions and to prefer different arrangements.

But on the other hand, you seem to disapprove of men who have different opinions and prefer different arrangements , ie men who don't want to financially support their wives to SAH.

So, are you saying that it's fine for women to have different opinions but not men? What if men don't believe in traditional gender roles?

I would choose that the flexibility of women's choices isn't reliant upon the goodwill of men as a whole
Agreed.

I find it depressing that the answer to men not doing their share at home when two adults work is to give women the right to demand she stays home and the husband is the breadwinner, not expect the men to step up at home.

But the backtracking is getting stronger.

We've gone from women having the right to stay at home and the man should suck it up and be a breadwinner because that's a penis person's job to and women/men are wired differently, men deserve sex by right, to it's just my opinion I think things should follow these stereotypes because gender roles are good, because I think they're the right way to do things.

On the one hand, OP, you seem to be saying that it's fine for people to have different opinions and to prefer different arrangements.

But on the other hand, you seem to disapprove of men who have different opinions and prefer different arrangements , ie men who don't want to financially support their wives to SAH.

So, are you saying that it's fine for women to have different opinions but not men? What if men don't believe in traditional gender roles?

This is what I'm confused about. OP claims to be completely pro choice on this subject... unless it's a choice she wouldn't personally make. In those cases, she positions that choice as a moral failing in others. Eh men who don't want to financially support their partner to not work.

It's frustrating when someone has opinions they claim to stand by but when it becomes clear they are thought of as sexist to others, an attempt at backtracking goes on. It's partly why I asked OP if she would allow same sex marriage in the ideal world she talks of.

Not as a gotcha but because I suspect she wouldn't based on her posts so far and I wanted to see if she would have the courage of her convictions to be honest about it or whether she would dodge the question.

But you have previously said that women should be able to work if they want to and you work yourself.

That isn't a strong view that men and women should take on certain roles.

Yes, @monsteramunch, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

The OP says that it's fine for people to have different opinions and preferences, but she appears to think that the only morally correct choice is traditional gender roles.

So in her world, men should naturally want to provide for their wives, and there is something wrong with them if they see things differently.

It's a bit less clear as to whether women are judged to the same extent if they choose not to adopt the traditional roles. The OP pays lip service to the idea of women having a choice, but deep down, I suspect that she thinks the better choice is to stay at home.

To be fair, it isn't clear from the OP's posts as to whether she is married yet or not. Maybe she is still waiting for her Knight in shining armour to come and rescue her from the burden of having to be a responsible adult?

Please can you outline / provide links to the scientific evidence supporting the theory that gender roles a. exist other than for cultural reasons & b. are beneficial (post breast feeding)?

The OP has made it clear that she doesn't feel the need to back her views up with scientific evidence. She believes what she believes and she thinks that is enough.

No.

I gave a real example of what I experienced at work recently due to gender roles and her response was but I'm talking about those who want to be SAHM's.

Like gender roles don't affect those who are trying hard to fight against it.

Obviously, the OP is not going to be bothered by the fact that gender stereotypes impact negatively on those who don't want to live like that. That isn't really her problem.

She talks a lot about women having choices, but I think it's pretty clear that there is only one "right" choice in her mind.

Like gender roles don't affect those who are trying hard to fight against it.

Exactly. I've experienced similar to you and continue to fight against stereotypes in a way my husband doesn't need to. Nobody has ever made assumptions about his career plans or Career Development because he had a small child. However, it's a constant battle for me.

I have my own opinions and views on how I would prefer a family arrangement. However, I also respect that people have different views they are entitled to. The reason I am pushing for men to provide more is because, I feel if a man is capable (not someone who can’t afford it), then I feel it’s fairer to provide according to his means. This is largely because a lot of working women, who contribute financially, I think, still take on more domestic work. If they want to work and do housework, that’s fine - but it would be fairer if they stopped contributing so much financially as well, as I believe domestic work and childcare has just as much value as financial work.

This does not mean men are to be freed from any housework or childcare responsibility, but that it becomes largely the mothers role, while his, the provider. Again, my preferred traditional roles.

If a couple do not wish to this, that is fine - I just felt bad for women who are in a position who want to stay home, their husbands has the financial means to fully provide, but isn’t allowing her to, and pushing her to return to work. And women are then finding that, they are still doing most of the childcare duties.

For those saying, why not encourage more men to take on domestic and childcare as a solution. Simple, from cultural experience, I hold the view that traditional roles have worked well. Any other arrangement, a couple prefers, I have no issue.

As far as same-sex couples are concerned, which someone keeps asking. I am only referring to male-female dynamics. I personally do not support homosexuality, nor do I bother bashing it. Therefore, I do not involve my opinions regarding that, each to their own.

Tbf the o/p has posted links.

unfortunately although if you actually read them they disagreed with her theories (and use pre-1960 research). One was an “essay” written by a single mum.

it’s clear o/p has no clue about evidence or how to use it.