Why are gender roles viewed negatively?

[reddragon7]

I read and see so many threads and real life examples, where men and women feel the need to be “equal.” The man about to become a father, refuses to become the main earner, even when he has the means, and insists that his wife also work and contribute financially. Doesn’t this seem imbalanced to anyone, and that society is being brainwashed to accept this as the norm.

I have nothing against a woman wishing to work post-children, however, I don’t understand why society and some men put pressure on their wives to work, if she would rather stay home with the children. This has now become and expectation. If a woman is contributing financially, it is never really 50/50, as she is also doing most of the domestic work.

People condemn gender roles as though they are ancient, but seem to forget that, biologically and psychologically, women are naturally better caregivers to children. They are the ones pregnant, produce all these hormones, and better equipped to raise a child than a man. Of course, there are exceptions, but as a general fact, people seem to ignore this.

In view of all this, I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway. Otherwise, it feels we are moving away from our gender roles, which may actually be more helpful in a marriage, than people make out.

That sounds reasonable to me. No rights, just open discussion.

@reddragon7

What about marriages where there are no children? Would the man still have to provide for the woman, or is the right only applicable to woman who are able or want to have a child?

OK, so you haven't ever actually lived in that society. That makes a difference.

It still isn't very clear from your posts as to what you mean by "rights", because you seem to be basing most of your answers on the idea that things will be mutually agreed between couples. You are consistently vague about what might happen if the couple can't reach an agreement about how to organise their family lives. The whole point about rights is that they are legally enforceable. You seem to shy away from saying that you would actually want to see any enforcement happening, though.

The OP has already answered this. She thinks that all married women (in heterosexual relationships) should be entitled to be supported by their husbands, regardless of whether there are children or not.

Thanks, I must have missed that. Bonkers!!

Yep!

I don't think we have had any explanation yet as to why the OP thinks that women without children should have the right to be supported financially, other than the fact that they might prefer not to have to work.

We also haven't yet been given any insight into this mythical country where most women freely choose to adopt traditional gender roles and this works really well for them.

Exactly

Most married couples where I grew up had all lived in that society, and it seemed like a cultural norm they were happy with.

I guess by “rights,” I meant I have a strong personal view that the financial responsibility is largely the husbands duty, and childcare/domestic is the wife’s, as I favour traditional gender roles. Realistically, couples themselves have to be comfortable with it first. And those who are British, I have discussed with in person, are in favour of the idea that they would like men to have a provider mindset. This doesn’t automatically mean a rich man, as rich men may not even want to provide. It could be someone who is fairly poor, but has the intention of being able to fully provide according to their means, providing the potential wife is okay with this.

If the couple can’t reach an agreement, they probably won’t marry, which is why it is vital to discuss finances in detail beforehand. If they have disagreements after marriage, it’s on them to solve it, and amendments can be made, to find a solution that favours both parties. The government law doesn’t get involved much. Usually, the larger community help resolve issues, such as, if one party feels it’s completely unfair. For example, if the wife is making the husband bankrupt, and they are struggling to pay rent. Or if the husband is not providing enough for the woman to pay for childcare.

But it’s usually a pre-set expectation anyway, that the husband will take on the provider role, but changes happen in life, which can require changes in roles, and most people understand this.

Do you think women are at least respected in this way? I find some cultures where this is traditional the men still don’t respect the women for the role they do

I think they are. I find that truly traditional men are very sweet and appreciating of their wives domestic and child care efforts. Which is what encourages women to be that way.

Obviously, you can get misogynist men who feel entitled, but that can happen anywhere, whether or not the man is providing.

I guess by “rights,” I meant I have a strong personal view that the financial responsibility is largely the husbands duty, and childcare/domestic is the wife’s, as I favour traditional gender rolesRealistically, couples themselves have to be comfortable with it first.
That's very different to married women having the right to demand their husband provides financially once children arrive because she's a mother and shouldn't have any obligations financially.
🤔

So if you're now backtracking on the idea of rights OP then what you're actually saying is that couples should be free to structure their family arrangements in a way that suits their values, outlooks, and circumstances...

... Which they already can!

Couples can ALREADY structure their families in a way that suits them, so what's with all the moralising about what you think married men should do, that married women should have the right to refuse to work, that men have the right to sex?
If you want a marriage where you meet your husband's right for sex and food in exchange for exercising your right to decide you don't want to work, you can have that sort of marriage now. Nobody is stopping you.

Absolutely.

OP what you've been arguing for is basically what exists now in any healthy relationship.

A couple discuss what their life will look like and make decisions as a team, reassessing and discussing further as and when necessary.

They're free to choose to both work, only one work, whatever they want.

Earlier you said that women have the right to be provided for and men have the right to sex with those women. You've said since that you didn't mean the word 'right' and it was clumsy wording. You've since said that you wouldn't put in place any legal sanctions / government involvement.

So now I'm unsure what you're so keen on pushing other than the existing status quo for healthy relationships, where couples decide what they want as a team and do what works for them...?

The government law doesn’t get involved much.

OK, so you are not actually talking about rights at all. You are talking about personal preferences that can be negotiated and agreed between couples. I have no issue with that.

I don't think it's a great way to organise society as a whole, and it is not a model that I would want for my own family, but if it works for you and yours, then I have no issue with it.

@Tumbleweed101

watch this and tell me gender roles are innate

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu44AqF0iI

people treat boys and girls differently from birth. Girls tend to be praised and encouraged to play “nicely”, boys are not pulled up for actively playing in the same way. Like pp, dress mine female and she got ooh mind your dress, be careful, don’t hurt yourself, all behaviour limiting comments. In jeans and a T-shirt and it was look at the brave boy, he’s such a good climber, don’t get in his way he’s going right to the top!

I am worried you work with children with these ideas. The nursery mine went to both boys and girls played equally in the home and dressing up corners, and none were allowed to hit with sticks.🙄

ffs.

I know many couples already have this arrangement. I was interested to discuss how overtime, women are struggling to take on SAHM roles, should they wish to - as men aren’t willing to take on more financial responsibility to allow this, DESPITE having the means ( if you read my original post). Not aimed at those with different circumstances. That’s why I felt I would prefer if this was more of a choice for women after marriage, as I said I personally believe it’s man’s duty provide.

You seem to be changing your position every ten seconds.

No I’m not, I thought I made myself clear on my original post.

But if men don't want to be the sole providers, why should they? Genuine question.

What is it about having a penis that makes them responsible for paying the bills?

Yep.

you stated children do better with a sahm as women are biologically better at nurturing.

therefore women should be able to not work as the caring role was so important that men should be expected to fully fund that lifestyle, whether they want to or not.

nothing about choice. Or maybe women have the choice, but men do not.

I don’t believe it’s a man’s job to provide, and I believe children do best exposed to a wide variety of people and experiences. Dh and I were main, equal, carers, but they got a lot out of nursery as well. Not least a lasting love of caribbean and African food!!

Honestly, no, your position is really not very clear or consistent because you keep talking about rights but not really seeming to mean that.

I guess that’s a personal view. I have always believed that financial responsibility should be taken on largely by the man, only according to his affordability though. Simply, because I believe in gender roles.

The crux of your original post, according to you:

I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway.

But you agree that men who want to do this are already welcome to do so. And that men who don't shouldn't be forced to. And that if men want to do it and then change their mind, that's reasonable because you agree sanctioning them legally would be wrong.

So you basically just think that individual couples making individual decisions that work for them and reassessing them as a team as and when necessary.

Which is what happens in any healthy relationship already...

You just personally think more men 'should' offer? But agree they have no actual obligation to and it would be wrong to force them to? Horses for courses in that case.

To be VERY clear, the section I've bolded here is a quote from OP, it's NOT my opinion!

I believe more men should offer to be financial providers, giving women the option to not work after children, as childcare costs aren’t exactly saving them much anyway.

Well, I hold very strong views that men and women should take on certain roles in marriages, should they have the ability to. As I said I do believe men have financial obligations to their family, and women likewise, to childcare. Obviously, this may need to be amended if circumstances changes, but from a personal perspective.

I know many couples already have this arrangement. I was interested to discuss how overtime, women are struggling to take on SAHM roles, should they wish to - as men aren’t willing to take on more financial responsibility to allow this, DESPITE having the means ( if you read my original post). Not aimed at those with different circumstances. That’s why I felt I would prefer if this was more of a choice for women after marriage, as I said I personally believe it’s man’s duty provide.
It IS an option for women to be a SAHP within marriage.
Just like it IS an option for a man to be a SAHP.
There's ALREADY that choice available for couples!

You're chopping and changing your mind every 5 minutes.

If YOU want to have a marriage with traditional roles, you can. You find a spouse who feels the same and have the sort of marriage you want.

That's VERY different to your rights, but not actually rights, science but not science, how it should be because women are wired that way and men should be the provider personal opinions where women in marriage should be able to demand that their husbands becomes sole provider simply because, well gender roles say so and some of us think that's what men and women should do.

Have whatever marriage you and your spouse want to have, but keep your hands off the rights of the rest of us (women and men) who don't believe that one spouse gets to dictate their rights based on backwards gender stereotypes.