Are there any absoute rights and wrongs in parenting?

[seeker]

Apart from bottom line safety issues?

I have been thinking about this because I consider myself by nature a relativist, and the mumsnet consensus is to end most discussions with something like "each to their own".

But I was on a thread recently when I felt very strongly that someone's viewpoint was just wrong. Not a different point of view, but wrong. And I said so - expecting to be flamed - but somewhat to my chagrin I was reminded of my insignificance by being ignored!

So, are there any parenting issues that people feel are absolutely right or wrong - or is everything except basic safety things like car seats and smoking over babies heads and not leaving your valium open in the cot a matter of opinion?

You don't know that, you don't know me and why is it no one can give me an answer!! Why is it that these other kids i went to school with turned out so bad then, if i had such a terrible childhood why i'm i a good member of society that works for a living and why if it is damaging have i 4 georgeous well behaved, bright, happy and confident kids!! It clearly doesn't damage everyone, as you think!! My hv agrees that my kids fine and dandy and me and dh are always recieving comments and compliments about how lovely, clean, tidy, well dressed, behaved and happy my children are from complete strangers..and they are always shocked at how well they sit down to eat dinner and have manners that most adults do not!!! Perhaps this is because they have 2 loving parents who have brought our children up to be that way, yes i smack and i'm proud very proud...quite frankly i couldn't give a monkeys what a bunch of stiffs like you think...i know different!!! I'm going on my own experience and what i see with other peoples children...i am not going on what others want me to think!!!

But I think what people are trying politely to intimate is that you haven't turned out fine. You're inarticulate, ignorant and convinced that hitting people smaller than yourself is a legitimate way of getting what you want from them.

I don't particularly want my children to 'turn out' like you.

Well, YOU think you are a 'good' member of society, but I think you are someone who hits their children and cannot see how that can be compatible.

You are far from my definition of a 'good' member of society.

BITCAT on Thu 07-Feb-08 19:17:39
"Illegal or not!! Cannot be enforced and it will still happen and is the government prepared to deal with the backlash and the thousands of children that will be wreaking havoc and all the children that will end up in care...even though they have perfectly good caring, loving parents whom they also love dearly...surely this would be far more harmful to the children...!! "

I see no evidence that this has been the result in Sweden where smacking was banned 20 years ago.

Not that I am taking sides very strongly in this debate, but your comment does seem to me like scaremongering.

I am also vaguely irritated by sundry comments implying that there is no middle-ground between smacking and complete laissez-faire. Am certainly not the laissez-faire type when it comes to my own dc's; I'm just used to other ways of disciplining. And no, they did not include endless reasoning or mental cruelty, both my parents were kind but firm and I respected them immensely. Still do.

BCat, can?t say I understand you post fully ( paragraphs would help, sorry) but you demonstrate that it isn?t one thing but many things that conspire to ?mess? us up. The thing to hold on to though is that these things are reversible ? or changeable- when we eventually take responsibility for ourselves; whether that be taking ad?s, counselling or just being able to ?get over it? (not one I?ve managed myself alone) ..

Bad familial habits are often inherited from out [parents (this is why dealing with your depression by any means necessary is essential) ; stable environments produce (on the whole) stable; kids. Loved kids know how to love. This isn?t rocket science. The past isn?t you destiny ? it is never too late to start working on yourself.

I think you all need to feck off, why don't you go write a book called i am right, everyone else is wrong!! Still no one has given me an answer!!! Hmm that does suggest that you really don't know you are just assuming, do you really think you are good members of society to judge someone that you do not know and on only one thing?? I will have the last laugh as my children turn out to be fantastic none judging adults!! And as you will see i am not saying your way is wrong, i am only saying that my way isn't either as i have tried your way which sometimes may work and when they don't and i have exhausted other options, then i will smack!! And i have also not called you awful names and slagged your way off and tried to make you out to be a monster who only wants to hurt your children!! When i have insulted you i have done it because you seem hell bent on stringing all mothers that smack up...you on the other hand and the other none smackers have continued to bully and be very nasty about those who smack...well i hope that makes you all feel very good about yourselves and i hope my children do not turn out to be as judgemental as you lot!! Good Parenting!!!

I fervently hope that your children do not turn out as you have. Sadly, I think it is almost inevitable that they will. And so the cycle of ABUSE will continue

okay Troll alert.

sorry fo feeding

BITCAT is not a troll, monkey, and you know it. She's just upset.

We've all been at the receiving of MN at one time or another. Leave her be. She's got four children, and that ain't easy.

Put the pitchforks away, ladies.

So having four children is now some kind of excuse is it

I am just respondig to her posts Desi - have no iclinc of her history. If she is stuggling then this is the place for her to get help - but only iof she wants it.

If she wants a fight there are enough of us who will oblige - if she needs something else then she needs to know how to commnicaste that.

incling of her hiostory - fiorst time \I have come across her in facft

Yes but monkeytrousers i respect everyones opinion and everyone way of the bringing up of children!!! I do not judge parents on 1 part of parenting, it's as a whole...we do have stable family and we do show love and we recieve it back..it the little things that make the difference!! My kids on half term next week as are many, but we have already planned for dh to have couple days of so we can do things with the children. We enjoy there company and they enjoy ours, they are happy and thrilled especially when i said we were going to be doing some baking next week...biscuits, pizzas and maybe some fairy cakes!! I am sorry about my typing but i just let my fingers run away with me and when i have something in my head i want to say, i just type sorry about that!!!! Just because i choose to do things differently doesn't make me any less of a mother than anyone else, and that is how everyone on here apart from a minority are coming across!!

BITCAT - that is just what any 'normal' parent plans to do with their child. What the 'normal' parent does not go on to do, is that after the lovely time baking, they then hit them!

The baking or taking time of work doesn;t somehow cancel out the hitting!

I feel incredibly sad for you - that you cannot see what non-abusive parenting is like. You've trapped yourself in a world of someone else's making and in turn are rapidly taking your DC's into that murky world too.

BITCAT - I've said earlier on that I think you sound a fab mother. There is just this one area where I disagree profoundly with you. I feel very strongly that smacking is wrong. I know you think differently - but I don't abuse you, I just disagree with you. I'm sure there are things you feel just as strongly about

Out of context completely, if you had read the thread you will see that i haven't hit or smacked my children for at least 3weeks now and that is because they seem to realise that mummy does give them a chance to comply and that if they sit in the corner when they have been asked to for whatever reason, then they will not get smacked and will have nicer time and it is getting much less of an occurance anyway because we have other ways which work vast majority of the time!! Smacking is very different to abuse and you know it!!! They would not get a smack after having a lovely time baking at all and it would have to be pretty serious for me to smack them anyway....i do want the impression that i smack all the time for silly things like refusing to pick a toy up, they would end up losing telly time for this!! Actually my dh was abused as a child, his dad took a belt to him because he was expelled from school but there again he wasn't a great parent in any shape or form, no love, ex army and completely down putting, never a nice word...dh said he could never do that..my mother same smack but not abuse...but she def mentally abused me constant put downs, stupid, drawings and pictures were regarded as rubbish..so no confidence and i would never ever put my children down, they are far more confident than i was not scared to do or try anything or to speak there mind...i couldn't even talk to my mother...they will talk to me about anything eldest has already talked about sex with me, any problems at school with other kids or teachers they tell me!!! It can't be all bad...smacking not ideal..i do hope that i don't have to continue doing it, i never intended to and never thought i would parenting isn't predictable and no one knows what the future holds, all i know is that my children are everything to me, i gave birth to them, i bf them, i provided them with good diet and a place to call home and we as a family love each other..and yes i keep going on about how i love my children does that not tell you anything???

You know BITCAT, you are so far from my view of what is normal, that I cannot continue this discussion.

I feel almost 'dirty' or 'unclean' discussing this with you. Your family life has been dire and the impact on you signficant. But if you cannot, or will not, allow yourself to see that, then I have better things to spend my time on.

seeker i do acknowledge what you are saying and appreciate your post, to disagree is ok, i don't disagree that your ways are also good..for you this works!! I just feel some of the posts are very nasty and hurtful, to make people feel like they don't care or love there children. you can disagree all you like, may not be you that was being very nasty and hurtful!!!

I originally posted on this thread because I was so outraged by the way BITCAT was responded to by some other posters. I think it has reached the point where all the main arguments have been aired. BITCAT - you do not have to justify the way you choose to bring up your children to some of these foaming idiots. Women have a terrible reputation for being unable to debate things rationally and some of these self-righteous loons unfortunately succeed in dragging the debate into some pretty nasty territory.

For balance, I also have to say that I felt very uncomfortable about Xenia's remarks, which seemed to suggest that better educated parents are better at childrearing. Seems a bit of a non sequitur to me. Not that I don't like having my PhD, but I never felt it made me a better mother- common sense did that. And I see no evidence that my neighbours who left school early are less well endowed with common sense than me. Some people seem to think that those without formal education can't be good at anything.

The point is that internationally the die is turning and the smackers will within the nexr 10 - 20 years even if they leave no marks be breaking the law. They are on a hiding (....pun intended) to nothing but the more of us point out the error of their ways and the more school can tell children if parents hit you it's wrong and report it... the better. This is the last dog days for those who think it's fine to hit children. Their time is virtually over.

I am also 100% sure that the lower your class the more likely your parents will smack and punch you. Any survey or stages would show you that.

...even if you did a survey on here perhaps even based on how well the smackers spell or badly compared with the non smackers, you would find the same.

Pot, kettle, erm black comes to mind, JGOWI.

Are we all self-righteous loons or just those who call others names to get the ri point across?

Well, I think 'self-righteous loon' is a somewhat softer insult than calling someone a child-abuser!!

If education wasn';t a factor parenting classes wouldn't work - but they do. It's to do with self management as well as child managment and the more stresses you have (the more poor you are the more stresses you have) the harder it is to manage - on average.

I don't think enia is saying that poor people are innately worse parents (at least I hope not) but that it is all about environments and those environments can be improved. So it's actually a positie prognosis - or can be.