I'm so viscious towards my children. I feel so much venom towards them.

[RedMist]

Name change regular.

I love my kids. They make me smile and proud.

Sometimes though, they drive me nuts. Actually, a lot of the time they drive me nuts. Like I have no time for them and they are nothing but an embuggarance. I wish they'd just leave me alone.

They mither for food and sweets a lot.

They prod, poke and provoke each other.

They trash every room, indeed even little corners I've just managed to organise or tidy. We live in a shit tip, no matter how long I spend clearing up & cleaning.

My son is 6.5 My daughter is 4.5.

I've started to lash out, really visciously. Tonight, I smacked my son across his face because he;d pushed his sister when he'd walked in the room. Then I started pushing him and saying "How do you like it eh? How do you like it when a bigger person pushes you around?"

Then I sent them to bed and refused to kiss my son good night. I was still shaking with anger at him for deliberately being a little shit.

My daughter pushes my buttons as well. She snaps and snarls and is deliberately rude, to gain attention. She whines and whines until my head feels like it's exploding.

I've read the parenting books. I know the right way to discipline. I just seem to have lost the ability to do it. I'm irrational and short-fused when ever the children are around.

What the fuck is wrong with me? Why am I like this?

I went to GP and he gave me fluxatine (sp?) - basically, prozac. It zonked me out so I stopped it.

Where do I turn to next. What shall I do?

I'm married and my DH helps with the children but he's quite untidy as well - simple DIY jobs for example, always end up with every tool and all the associated crap, just left lying around, waiting for me to clear them away. So that just adds to everything.

I need answers Mumsnet, or at least a place to start resolving this.

Any advice?

Kindersurprise, I agree that respect is at the root of it, that's a word that we use a lot - and lack of it is my biggest flashpoint I think.

Oregon, thank you very much for putting that all down. Very interesting. I think it's absolutely right that explanation and reason are more likely to get children to understand why they should behave properly, than "because I'm in charge and I say so". Also the point about being clear about loving them unconditionally even while disliking the behaviour.

However, when you've explained and reasoned till you're blue in the face and they choose not to get it (or if they do get it but choose to behave like an arrogant s*t - like my alpha male 9yo at times), where does Kohn go then..? How do you enforce the minimum standard of behaviour? I can't imagine a realistic alternative to rules, reward and punishment... I'm not sure I agree that children are more likely to behave well just because they know parental love is unconditional, though it's a nice idea (is Kohn a parent himself, just out of interest?). Isn't it an undisputable fundamental facet of human nature that we all respond to incentives? (I mean this entirely in the spirit of genuine interest and debate and don't want to sound dismissive in any way, thank you for the discussion...)

Great thread - gets right to the heart of parenting! Thank you RedMist and everyone else.

Hi Looby,

don't worry, i am not going to get my back up, i enjoy discussing this!

you have hit right on the weakness of Kohn's approach he doesn't really offer a plan b. since reading his book, there have been a few days (but not as many as i would have thought), when i have found myself in 'explanation meltdown', where i am blue in the face, and ds1 is still pushing my buttons or refusing to comply particularly difficult if it is a 'do or die' type situation, like putting on his car seat belt.

the only thing i can say is that i have learned that sometimes when i am blue in the face, there is some well of patience deep inside me that i must tap into and keep going. for example, the other day, ds1 had really provoked me (can't even remember why now), and I was really close to losing my temper or tears or both. a little voice came into my head and said, 'when you have given him all you can give, you must find more and give that too.' I took a deep breath, pulled the car over, looked him in the eyes, and told him i loved him and i wanted to keep him safe and happy and that was why i was asking him to do what i wanted him to do. somehow, it worked.

however, i am well aware, having been putting this into practice for the last few months, that it is not fool-proof, and I disagree with kohn that you should never give your kids time-outs. I used one yesterday because ds1 had thrown a big brick at ds2's head. Again, I was very close to losing it and I did use rather more force than i would have liked to restrain him on the naughty step because I was also trying to calm ds2 with the other hand and, to be prefectly blunt, I was as angry as hell at him.

But then we calmed down, had a chat, and I managed to get out of him that he was feeling pretty jealous (I'm summarising). So I revised a little talk we have about it being OK to feel angry and hit the cushion, the sofa, etc, but it's not OK to hit ds2. he'll probably forget and need reminding by this weekend, but nevermind.

i really don't have a clue how to put this into practice with older children.

funnily enough my 'stress' has been better since i joined MN about 18mths ago as i now have people to 'talk' to, before i was basically on my own all day every day except for the DC, dp gets home late and i was too embarrased to talk to my friends about some of my feelings etc so i just kept it bottled up - writing things down pen/paper style has always helped me but now i get replies!!

just throwing a spanner into the alfie kohn works here ... ds1's psychiatrist suggested not reasoning through and explaining things so much - he has TS/AS/ADHD and responds much better to rules because they're much more concrete - if you start explaining why he'll get stuck on one small detail and go off on a tangent whereas if you say we don't do that because that's the rule he'll find it much easier to understand

Looby and Oregon I have recently read Kohn and, as a arent with older (by which I mean not pre-schooler) children I have found it life changing stuff.

We have done a lot of star chart/ reward stuff with ds and at nearly 8 he's not motivated by them and actually I felt out of options. Time out makes him furious - just doesn't work. Unconditional Parenting made me completely reassess the way I relate to my children.

I found it a hard, challenging and upsetting read but I have to say it has transformed my relationship with my children, especially my older son. It's a long game approach to parenting, but the short term improvements I have experienced have been good so far.

Red Mist: I haven't read all 231 posts (I'm at work!) but I went to my GP a year ago and told her about the horrific Xmas I'd had resulting in the silent treatment from DH's parents and 2 siblings. She referred me for mental health counselling sessions but they didn't materialise. I've had year from hell. Went to doc in December and she realised the referal had been lost (from one side of the corridor to the other). I finally had a meeting on Monday with mental health nurse. Hopefully I can adopt some less violent and agressive behaviour. Getting some exercise is gonna help I know (I went to aqua-fit last night). Got really knackerd and slept well. But you may need the AD's. I'm still pinning my hopes in them but have to see (nice but dim) GP again for that. Have impressed on my DH about house tidiness. He doesn't see the mess - but I do and it makes me mad. I have occasionally lashed (verbally) at my daughter (3) but would never hit her. I was hit by a number of family members over the years and can remember the feeling. Please don't do it again. I've been teaching my daughter to punch a cushion when she's cross. I have to show her I can do that too. It tends to dispel the situation and can releive the tension. Good luck.

Thinking about this more I think that for my part a lot of the anger is frustration at not being able to do what I want to do even for a moment. I did and still do want kids more than anything in the whole worlld but would sometimes like a few uninterrupted mins. I think I have not learned to deal with frustration well. My parents never nknew hoe to dealk with it and so could not teach me. I need to learn myself. My kiddies are frustrated too at not being able to do/express what they want.,. I need to learn to deal with it myself in order to teach them. Must go - they are fighting!!!

hanaflower, good luck with it and will you let us know how you go on? I've been reading this afternoon's posts and I was thinking that whatever parenting books, tricks, times-outs, explanations etc you want to use - any parenting is only going to work effectively if you are 'right' and whole and calm within yourself as an individual.

Is it maybe the case that if you can find ways of sorting your own karma (for want of a better word ) out then that frees you to experiment with different parenting techniques?

So on my list is exercise, counselling, getting out into the freshair, music, bedroom/kitchen sanctuary, time for me, maybe ad's, straightening the house once a day etc. If these are the things that will calm my inner spirit, then will the ability to utilise different parenting techniques be so much more effective because I have freed myself of my own inner irritations?

There's a dead quick way of saying all of that which would make far more sense!

Thank you Oregon. Interesting.

FooFoo, could you bear to elaborate on how you've made it work with older children? I can't imagine it working with an ultra alpha male 9yo who thinks he's invincible, and plays up for the hell of it and to test the boundaries. Agree that time outs and star charts etc stopped working quite a while ago - what works now is restricted privileges (reduced screen time / not going to Saturday's party etc), but if this is counterproductive in the long run then I need to know!

(I hope this isn't too much of a thread hijack - getting the DCs not to be enraging in the first place is not the same as how not to let the rage tip over into violence, but I think it's still relevant)

X post. Good point RedMist and probably at the heart of the issue.

Looby lolly it's early days. A lot of it has been me changing my attitude, expectations and my behaviour to be honest.

I try not to say no unless I have a really good reason which I can explain and justify. So my ds naturally accepts no more easily, partly because he hears it less now but also because I think he feels I am more on his side. I am also more flexible - I have realised that the earth won't stop revolving if I listen to ds's reasoning, reflect and say, "actually you are right. I have changed my mind".

Part of it is definitely being less controlling.

Give me some examples of some issues you have and I'll see iwhat I did/ might have done.

Great FooFoo thanks - I think we have moved away from RedMist's concerns so I will start a new thread for this conversation later.

Good luck to RedMist and all of us!

Not read all of thread but I lose it when my period is due. A few days later and I'm "aaahh - that's why!"

Fourjays - me too! I'm trying to note in my diary when AF due so I can be aware of possible melt downs.

Ginger - your post struck a huge cord with me.

I can't skim read this thread cos every post is so useful and interesting!

Thank you margo for such a lovely thing to say. I don't feel like a good step-mum much of the time but I want to keep trying.

speckledhen - I think what you said about your childhood and linking the anger with that is really important. My Mum was and is very affectionate and loving. However, she also was (and is) very, very quick to anger, sometimes unpredictably and explosively. Generally this was a result of challenges to her authority, which I now see are HER control and insecurity issues, not mine. However, I am mimicking them, having been brought up to believe that
a) parents should be obeyed unquestioningly
b) expression of my negative feelings brought only negative and punitive consequences
c) mother's love appeared to be conditional on 'being good' and pleasing.

This is the model I have taken on board as a child and now, however much I rationally do not agree with it, I find it hard not to model it myself as a parent. It's bloody hard work isn't it?

A couple of people talked about saying when they were cross that they still loved their child anyway - sometimes, I am ashamed to say, I do not say this kind of thing because I am so angry that I don't feel I love her. Perhaps I need to say it anyway. I remember saying to a little boy once who had been abused and I was helping to look after, when he was in the middle of a tantrum where he was wrecking his room - 'It's OK, you can do this and we will tidy it all up after. You are angry and unhappy right now and that's fine - I still really really like you anyway' He stopped, ran towards me and gave me the biggest hug and cried. I forgot about that incident, but I must remember that positive messages are so much more important to children than all the nagging in the world.

Sorry for rambling again!

Not had time to read all so hope not repeating..

Am sure that control is an issue (speak from experience). Housework can be controlled so can become focus, whereas issue could be controlling (or not being able to) other people. Recommend livinglifetothefull.com - is nhs site providing cognitive behaviour therapy - v good - looks at relationships and responses. Will need to commit to spend fair amount of time to work thru.

Ended up on AD after ds1 - citalopram - but was just masking real issues. Saw counsellor after birth of ds2 in july (as preventative measure) who did some CBT with me - she was fab. Was organised thru gp.

Also recommend Tanya Byron 'Your Child Your Way' - recent publication - had me in tears.

Good luck to you

Would echo CBT being good. I have had therapy based on it and has been really useful.

Just joined this a little late after spending the last hour or so reading through everyone's such helpful posts. mummytocharlie - the website you mention looks really interesting. I too have been feeling pretty down recently and a little 'lost', just not coping as well as I think I should, so this site looks as if it covers so many areas of difficulty that so many of us come across.

Redmist - I identify with you in many ways. We moved a few months ago to a new area, I then had a miscarriage and so the end of 2007 has been a bit much for me. Yes, we all lose our rag from time to time - it's only human - but I think we all know when life's getting on top of us. Hats off to you for actively doing something about it.

And because of your initiative to post in the first place, you're helping so many others - without your original post, I wouldn't have known about the above mentioned website which I feel is going to help me deal with certain areas of my life.

THANK YOU! x
PS I have DD 4.5 and DS 20mths

I've just spent the whole evening reading this thread. I'm so glad you started it redmist and so glad it was on one of the threads of the week that I spotted as I skimmed through the weekly news round-up.

I've been making notes and (sadly rarely at the moment) ended the day really happily, dacing with my boys in their bed room, far too late. but it was fun.

i recognise a lot of the triggers mentioned - messy house (unfortunately, I have high standards, but am really lazy, plus have 3 hideously messy kids and an even worse dh).

I've been losing it a lot recently, so much is out of my control, I'm being pretty much forced to emigrate to a country I don't want to go to, from one I don't want to leave, I'm pg, and still unsure when I'll be emigrating and in which country I'll have the baby, my dh is living in the other country already, so I'm coping with the 3 boys on my own mon-fri, I arely get angry when dh is here (tho he is very short tempered and cotrol-freaky with the kids) but during the week I get so tired and bad tempered.

I really hate the thought of giving them bad memories of their childhood. Just the other day, ds1 piped up, mummy, do you remember that time you asked me to count cars and I did it wrong and you said I was useless.....? I was so ashamed and mortified and horrified I'd even said such a hurtful thing, but he remembered it as clearly as if it was yesterday

I'm waffling, sorry, adn certainly don't mean to hijack. This thread has been very useful and given me a fresh determination, but at the same time, I see a lot of the problems/reasons/triggers, but no real solutions while I'm alone, pg, unable to work, unable to have control over where I live etc. Being so out of control is scary. Then you think what the kids must feel like, not just mine, all/most kids. They have far far less say in their day to day lives. WHich is why it pisses me off dh is so controlling, but then maybe I'm projecting guilt at my failure onto him?

Ellie, I can't skim read anything either. Each and every post tells a story, gives a message.

I cannot thank you all enough, each and every one of you, for taking the time to read and respond.

I've spent much of today nipping on and off here, reading new posts and going back to the earlier ones - picking out stuff I need.

It's all been calm again today. The bedroom is now sorted, complete with hand cream and a foot spa!!! OK, so the foot spa might be pushing my luck a bit but when the kids have gone to bed, I have one room which I have reclaimed, organised and can relax in. So thank you Lisa for that. I also noted Dotty's point - the bedroom might not be the place and the kids may well follow me in there, but at least I have one room under control!

My DS said tonight "I haven't hurt DD at all today, have I mummy?". He was looking for my approval and that can only have come from what happened on Monday night. I cringed and cringed inside. I replied "Hey, you and DD have been lovely to be around today. Thanks Cheeky Chops" and I smiled and we had a love. God, I felt like a scumbag though.

He had a playdate over after school as well. Another child I've known since before he was born, so it was kind of an easy playdate IYKWIM. My two tend to act up and show off like mad in front of other children when they visit and tonight was no exception. I could feel the anger rising on a few occasions but I found stopping and analysing EXACTLY what they were doing which was starting me off and you know what - it was such small things. Calling each other Poo Poo head - FFS! Like that warrants an angry reaction.

I just kept it buttoned. When I needed to them to stop bickering etc, I used a very quiet voice. Oddly, very effective!

Showers and bed time were smooth, warm and gentle. DH read them a story in our bed which was an extra break for me as well as a nice thing to see. To be fair, he does quite often take on the story telling/homework reading but tonight just seemed extra poignant!

Anyway, another day without mishap. Quite a few triumphs and a great deal of mumsnetters advice pressed into action in a real and positive way.

Busy day tomorrow - lots of running around to do during the day, two extra kids to look after for my friend, after school, probably a late night for the children. Stand by for a Redmist epic report tomorrow night.

Thank you all once again, not just from me but on behalf of the children and my DH

ernest & loveverona, both your posts stopped me in my tracks. You are both so amazing. I was wondering about making a list of all the good ideas on here- sort of a check list. I was just going to do it on MS Word, for myself. I wonder if it would be useful to paste it on here for you too? Sort of a thread summary!

Redmist
So good to hear that you had a good day. It is funny, once I made the decision that I had to DO something, it became much easier to cope with anything that the DCs threw at me. Things that even a day earlier would have made me screech like a banshee just rolled off my back.

I noticed that my SIL always shouts at her DCs and that they do not even react when she speaks in a normal tone. They have been "programmed" into ignoring her unless she raises her voice. It always annoyed me and I recently realised that we were heading in the same direction.

ernest
Your post made me cry. You are under such a lot of stress at the moment so it is not surprising that you lash out at those closest to you. I hope that you continue to find the strength to cope.

Redmist, I think a list would help all of us. There are so many good ideas on here that I wouldn't have thought of in a million years. MN rocks.

RedMIst, you sound very strong. A LOT of people don't admit their own behaviour to themselves, often because they were treated that way themselves as a child so its "normal". It takes a tremendous amount of insight and courage to attempt to alter and change ourselves.
Another lady asked if you'd been abused as a child. It think in some ways this is a helpful question but from what I have seen many many people don't even realise they were abused, because they only remember the "good" memories of their childhood and bury the bad. On this this thread many of the women are dissecting their childhoods and in the process making huge changes to their life and behaviour now. Whatever you feelings are about your chilhood, I'm sure at the very least that thread will be interesting to you because many people on their are having to re-learn how to be a parent.