How many generations back did it go wrong for Arthur

[iwanttobeonleave]

The awful case of Arthur L-H has got me thinking about the long term causes of these situations. Clearly all three adults involved were completely despicable but why? What's caused this and where did it go wrong?

Can this level of disfunction happen in one generation or would there be a history of it if one looked back a few generations?

Just such a completely desperate case, the poor, poor child.

I’m pretty sure everyone thinks the hairdresser and her partner should have reported it.

Perhaps they would have. I’ve seen countless threads on here of people asking what to do, should they report etc. and sometimes it takes people time to make that decision to call for plenty of factors. As PP say, lockdown and illegal working may have been part of that. Obviously most people asking for help to decide to report don’t witness quite such shockingly awful treatment.

They should have reported straight away. Of course they should.

But ET was coming back the next day, and I’d imagine they were scared of TH who was clearly a violent man.

Arthur died within hours of them leaving on the second day.

I would like to think they were going to report it. Tragically for Arthur that delay was fatal. But he was failed by so many people and processes.

I suspect that Arthur's birth mother was being abused by Hughes (who is quite clearly a monster) and it spiralled down from there. I've been in an abusive relationship and they do an absolute number on you. You're more likely to go on to have another one afterwards, too.

The judge said something like, Arthur had a happy childhood with his father before Tustin came on the scene. I highly doubt that. Having read about the things Hughes did, he is quite clearly an evil individual. It's possible he was the trigger for Arthur's birth mother going on a downward spiral.

He sent a text to Emma Tustin saying "just end him" shortly before the kid was murdered. That shows you exactly what kind of person he is.

Perhaps they would have. I’ve seen countless threads on here of people asking what to do, should they report etc. and sometimes it takes people time to make that decision to call for plenty of factors. As PP say, lockdown and illegal working may have been part of that. Obviously most people asking for help to decide to report don’t witness quite such shockingly awful treatment
To be honest it's worrying how many times an OP can share they have concerns about a child and be subject to a pile on from dozens of posters telling them to mind their own business, stop being a judgey perfect parent, followed by endless whataboutery designed to shame and bully someone into not reporting concerns about a child's welfare.

The same happens on threads about school safeguarding procedures where posters join I'm whipping up anger in support of a poster who is annoyed that school staff have followed safeguarding procedures.

Then there's the semi-regular threads where a poster will complain that they have to cooperate with social services and the thread gets flooded with (at times) unquestioning support for a poster who says their children are being monitored for no reason, followed by endless stories about how social services and other agencies invent safeguarding concerns and remove children for no reason.

When something like this tragedy happens people are quick to say more should have been done, but my time on mumsnet has shown that a lot of people have quite concerning attitudes to safeguarding at the best of times.

I've read lots of threads where the OP is told unequivocally to report their concerns to the NSPCC or social services.

There are very many threads where a step parent, usually a step mother, is told she has no role to play in the upbringing of children coming into her home.

I think we need to take collective responsibility and a high profile public education campaign is needed. However fundamentally social services and the whole care system needs massive investment.

@HopefulRose Generational trauma is very much a thing. It’s passed on from generation to generation. Of course it can be broken but more often than not, it has repercussions.

I absolutely agree, having seen some research showing that biological trauma markers were shown in (IIRC) the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors.

Aside from that, speculation on this thread is distasteful - we don’t know why the mother had a termination or what relationships between people were like. Why do people think speculation helps, unless it’s to further convince themselves that “they” are nothing like “us”.

As for the question of what we do about it, vote for a party that will fund support services properly. Write to your MP and demand better. Get involved with campaigns, donate to charity or volunteer with support groups. There’s a myriad of different things that might only be a sticking plaster over a gaping wound but will have more effect than hand wringing on the internet. But ultimately nothing will change for the people who commit crimes like this, and for the Arthurs of this world, until the support systems change to break cycles of abuse and its causes, and we stop thinking that people can be demonised or shamed out of their behaviour patterns.

WeAreTheHeroes
There's definitely people who post about doing the correct thing and reporting concerns, I just find it concerning how many posters are quick to tell people to mind their own business and how quick there are people willing to unquestioningly accept that social services would get involved for no reason.

Anecdotally it seems to be:
Heard shouting or screaming, or seen a parent harm a child: thread largely unanimous in saying report it
Have concerns about a child that could be neglect, or that you've noticed a change in the child or you've got 3 or 4 smaller concerns: thread has posters advocating reporting and a worrying number saying to mind your own business, maybe it's a rough week, maybe you should stop judging, you're such a perfect parent.

It's not hard to see how children fall through the cracks when social services is chronically understaffed and underfunded, services to support families are cut back, and for every responsible adult who would report concerns there's another who thinks social services remove children for fun and unless you've seen a child be harmed you should keep your nose out

I think The responsibility of his care lies with all of them- his mother committed an act that meant she could not be present for his childhood or main care, that to me is a lack of her responsibility. Secondly this led to him being with his father, who, in my opinion merits equal punishment as his partner- he was Arthur’s primary family and he encouraged, allowed & supported this series of tragic, terrible terrible events. His parents both abandoned their primary responsibility to him. His ‘step-mum’ is just evil I can’t imagine what type of person can do those things. She has some sort of mental health issue to my mind; I can’t fathom how she can not yet commit those acts on a small boy in her care. Even if she didn’t like him. It’s just brutal insanity surely. His parents I think are both dysfunctional and I expect they have both had examples in their lives of traumatic and extremely dysfunctional relationships and violence.
I only hope that something positive can come from his life; a change in social services, more vigilance, more care. So sad for that little boy & his Grandma. Xxxxx

@Ijsbear

dustandfluf

You didn't actually read anything about the multiple reports did you? Have you ever actually seen extreme child abuse? Because I have, it's haunted me for 45 years, I've spend a lot of money trying to locate the abuser to report, and it doesnt fucking work . What's needed is a fundamental shift where people are really willing to put money into social services, and to make sure it goes to social care and not directed elsewhere and good quality people are recruited and supported, because dear god is it a desperately difficult job.

All these children die, and this kid was only one of the ones reported. A few of the ones who die hit the deadline but so many more just, just scrape through with so much damage they'll pass it on to their kids, and their kids' kids.

The government doesn't care and they are the only ones who can do something because they are the only ones who can help.

God bless that man who at least showed him some kindness. The system didn't, and when a child is in that extremis, the only thing you can hope for is that they remember that some people can show kindness.

You know absolutely nothing about me and any abuse I've experienced, in any capacity, in my life. DFOD.

Let’s not blame his mother.

She met that arsehole and it seems he wrecked her life.

@WeAreTheHeroes

I've read lots of threads where the OP is told unequivocally to report their concerns to the NSPCC or social services.

There are very many threads where a step parent, usually a step mother, is told she has no role to play in the upbringing of children coming into her home.

I think we need to take collective responsibility and a high profile public education campaign is needed. However fundamentally social services and the whole care system needs massive investment.

I posted on here a few times many years ago about concerns I had over my DSD and treatment from her DM. I was very concerned over the mainly emotional and verbal abuse which had turned physical. I was absolutely FLAMED. I did actually call the NSPCC and they basically said, have a think if you really want to report this as we have to tell them who reported it and it might make it worse for you and for the child. Obviously I didn't want to make things any worse so I didn't take it any further. The child is now a fully grown adult and on the surface seems to be a functioning member of society but deep down she has a lot of mental health problems. Not really sure how to fix things when everywhere you turn for help basically tells you to back off. Although things have perhaps changed now, this was over 10 years ago. On the other hand my own child fell twice and banged his head in a matter of months and I was told by GP receptionist to be careful as they might get social services involved. It would have been really upsetting to me if this had happened as I've never touched a hair on his head, he was just a clumsy kid.

“Chocoholic9
He sent a text to Emma Tustin saying "just end him" shortly before the kid was murdered. That shows you exactly what kind of person he is.”

I agree,Chocoholic. I don’t quite understand why his sentence is so different.
Also,if he had been a good father to her evil stepmother, he could have taken Arthur away from such an abusive stepmother long before and put him back with his grandparents. He can’t just say I wasn’t the one who killed him. He sounds devious and manipulative and monstrous - goading her on.

@sarah13xx

I have to say I’m sure there are so many hard-working individuals who want the best for every child they deal with in these organisations but the dealings I’ve had with social work haven’t been great at all 🤦🏼‍♀️ I’m a teacher and had concerns about a child on multiple occasions (really serious concerns) from things they told me and injuries they had. Every single time I flagged it up and every single time nothing was done. I’d break my heart going home knowing the child was going back there. One of the time I raised my concerns about a threat he told me he’d received at home with my head teacher for the HT to phone social work and be told could we just ask his mum about that. So the person we believe is abusing him is to be told that he has come into school saying these things, as if she’s just going to admit to harming him 🤔 My HT then went ahead and did this as asked and the following day he was so silent and wouldn’t speak to me, I dread to think what happened to him as a result of that ☹️ A random member of the public saw him and his mum out somewhere and reported what they witnessed to police. Again, social work were involved and yet again, nothing done.

On another occasion at another school a child lived with one of his parents and a step-parent. I regularly ran away from school because he was so scared of his step-dad (who regularly assaulted him) he didn’t want to go home. One of the times he was found he lay on the floor crying and shaking, not wanting to go back with him and he was promised he wouldn’t have to and could go back to the school. Just a week later he vanished from his house and a huge search operation was underway. I went to help, searching into the night and all I could think of was the fact if he was dead, social work could have so easily prevented it. He turned up the following day, hiding in the tiniest space in his own loft. He was again placed back with the parent but finally removed after the HT intervened. I think there must be a lot of red tape for these organisations too but it just takes so much it seems for them to even contemplate doing anything about it when there are multiple children that I know of right now living in violent homes, not being given the proper care. That’s exactly how these cases come about and I’m sure Arthur’s teacher is breaking his/her heart over this case because they no doubt raised concerns but didn’t get anywhere.

Sorry, nothing to do with your post really but just had to get it off my chest about the whole situation because you always see comments after these events like ‘you’d think the teacher etc would have noticed’.. they probably did!

Oh gosh that sounds so upsetting to deal with 😞

@mankywits

Cyw2018
Considering how rare it is for women to commit murder, it is interesting that Thomas Hughes managed to form relationships with 2 women who went on to do this in a relatively short period of time. It will be fascinating to read some psychological analysis of him.

Yes because if a woman behaves in a cruel and sadistic way it must be a man's fault. She has no free will even though she is an adult.

This is not the point in trying to make.

Women murderers are so rare that statistically most of us will go through life without meeting a women murderer or a women who will go on to murder.

In a relatively short period of time Hughes met and got into an intimate relationship with two women with this rare potential. What does that say about his personality, mental health or relationship 'needs'?

Alternatively you could consider him to be VERY unlucky in love, but I can't or won't believe that of a man capable of that level of abuse towards his own child.

That's my thoughts.
Her first trial she was not guilty she was only found guilty on appeal.

The newspaper reports I've read say his mother was convicted of murder but it was reduced to manslaughter on appeal and one paper said part of the reason for showing her mercy was that her son had been killed.

[quote Cyw2018]@mankywits

Cyw2018
Considering how rare it is for women to commit murder, it is interesting that Thomas Hughes managed to form relationships with 2 women who went on to do this in a relatively short period of time. It will be fascinating to read some psychological analysis of him.

Yes because if a woman behaves in a cruel and sadistic way it must be a man's fault. She has no free will even though she is an adult.

This is not the point in trying to make.

Women murderers are so rare that statistically most of us will go through life without meeting a women murderer or a women who will go on to murder.

In a relatively short period of time Hughes met and got into an intimate relationship with two women with this rare potential. What does that say about his personality, mental health or relationship 'needs'?

Alternatively you could consider him to be VERY unlucky in love, but I can't or won't believe that of a man capable of that level of abuse towards his own child.[/quote]
Maybe like attracts like? He was dysfunctional and he was attracted to dysfunctional women. Maybe he was attracted to dysfunctional women or maybe he was some sort of Svengali who turned perfectly nice normal women into monsters.

How did Fred West find Rose, how did Ian Brady find Myra Hindley? How did Nathan Matthews find Shauna Hoare? Maybe it is some sort of instinct they have or maybe it is some horrific chemistry and if they had each met someone "normal" the murders and torturing would never have happened, although I think Fred and Rose West both killed independently before doing it together so maybe it is even more complicated.

I know it's a different kettle of fish but I think this is an excellent piece of journalism on Baby P:

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2009/aug/16/baby-p-family

Explains the normalisation of his abuse and why people just didn't see it. It crossed my mind when I read about the hairdresser not reporting what she'd experienced with Arthur.

Like I said, I think the dynamics are markedly different in this case, but I do think that article explains a lot, generally, about child abuse cases that go under the radar.

In her court documents, Arthur's mother (Olivia) stated that she was sexually abused as a child:

Link here

[quote Cyw2018]@mankywits

Cyw2018
Considering how rare it is for women to commit murder, it is interesting that Thomas Hughes managed to form relationships with 2 women who went on to do this in a relatively short period of time. It will be fascinating to read some psychological analysis of him.

Yes because if a woman behaves in a cruel and sadistic way it must be a man's fault. She has no free will even though she is an adult.

This is not the point in trying to make.

Women murderers are so rare that statistically most of us will go through life without meeting a women murderer or a women who will go on to murder.

In a relatively short period of time Hughes met and got into an intimate relationship with two women with this rare potential. What does that say about his personality, mental health or relationship 'needs'?

Alternatively you could consider him to be VERY unlucky in love, but I can't or won't believe that of a man capable of that level of abuse towards his own child.[/quote]
I think the posters point is there is an undertone to your posts that mean he is somewhat culpable for these womens actions. They and they alone are responsible for their actions. As is he for his.

And every other person who came into contact and did nothing, Inc the police and social workers.

Two social workers saw that little boy the day before. That emaciated sick limping little boy in pain, half poisoned by salt, sallow eyed, with hundreds of injuries, they had four reports, and those social workers deemed it all fine and walked out the house. Leaving him to be murdered the next day.

This is potentially outing so I have changed my name.

I’m from a family where there was terrible, criminal abuse on my dad’s side when he was a kid. He ended up in a children’s home after his mum was locked in a mental institution (as was then prettily called) and his dad went to prison. How parents had only been 15 when he was born and were both institutionalised by the time they were 20. But my dad managed to escape the shackles of his bad upbringing and has had a largely good and long marriage to my mum. There are me and two other siblings. Nice, normal childhood for me for the most part, although my Dad is obviously scarred by his childhood and in particular has a scary temper sometimes, which has never been physically violent but which can be very scary and I spent a lot of my childhood as the “peace keeper” trying to reason with him when he would get very angry. The flip side of this was how clever he is and he was very interested in helping me achieve academically. That was our bond when I was growing up and he played an instrument with me.

My dads mum was in and out of his life from the time he was in his early 20s, but she had a lot of alcohol related issues and was inconsistent. His dad was never in his life, having died of alcoholism when my dad was only 30 (and my grandfather himself was only in his mid 40s). FWIW my dad doesn’t touch alcohol.

When I was 16 I entered into a relationship with my then teacher. He was 33. His family situation was startlingly similar to my own dads- prison, physical and sexual abuse, alcohol abuse. He also had a very bad temper but was very clever and mentored me in his subject (music) as my Dad had done. It was very obvious why I was attracted to him. It wasn’t predestined exactly, but we bonded over what we knew of what families could be, this was a real tie for us and obviously I was playing out my Dad stuff with him. Who’s to say that our bond would ever have been as strong had we not had such a shared history of dysfunction.

What followed was a terrible almost ten years. He (I’ll call him Ben) had been married when our relationship started but swiftly left his wife for me. My parents were horrified but it was the late 80s and not illegal (because I was over 16).

I was a clever kid and got decent A Levels and went to uni to study Ben’s subject (whilst still with Ben, that was what we initially bonded over) but our lives were blighted by booze. I loved Ben, for all his faults and despite the dubious nature of our relationship safeguarding-wise looking back, and I believe he loved me but we LOVED drinking. We both obviously had a genetic predisposition to alcoholism and we pulled the other down. We were very violent with one another whilst drunk and as the years went on this got worse and spilled into our lives more and more. Whereas previously we had been a quirky but functional couple sober and Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? drunk, we got worse and worse until violence was a feature of our daily lives.

I did well academically despite the drinking and had a good job after uni that I held down surprisingly well all things considered (eg that was drunk from 5pm every day and still drunk some mornings). He was still teaching. My job almost certainly saved me, I didn’t want a baby because of my my career and Ben and I married but agreed we wouldn’t have a family until we had “sorted out the boozing”, which was our shorthand for “sorted our lives out”.

The drinking and violence escalated and, long story short, he met me after work for drinks one day after we had argued and brought a knife out with him, which he threatened me with. Not the first time that this had happened but we got so drunk that we fought and he stabbed me (the knife and threatening wasnt new, the stabbing was) and I kicked him in the head and he ended up in hospital very ill with a head injury. My stabbing was largely superficial but scary. It wasn’t the first time anyone had been hospitalised, I had previously ended up in hospital at his hand too, and to be honest it wasn’t even the worst anyone had rowed or been hurt, but the combination of the stabbing and the head injury was a wake up call. The doctor treating him told me a swift kick a bit more left of where I caught him would have killed him.

I loved Ben very deeply and would have done almost anything to save our relationship and save him, but hearing that I was half an inch from having murdered him because I was off my face on vodka was (pardon the pun) sobering. We parted, but it was very hard. He was brilliant and funny and so sexy (the sex was amazing) and I know he felt the same about me. It took me years to not miss him. We both had to be very strong to keep away from each other (and some of that was that we enlisted others to keep us from one another in the end! I think my parents were ready to lock me in the spare bedroom and not let me out til he had moved to Australia).

Thanks to a good family, probably my own intelligence to a certain extent and AA, I got sober and haven’t had a drink for 20yrs. I am married to a wonderful man, have three lovely kids and not a moments hint of a abuse in our domestic set up. My very sensible and lovely husband cannot believe the stories I tell about that relationship because he’s never seen a hint of that version of me. Equally, I have not seen Ben in many years but last time I did he looked unremarkable and was remarried, wearing a pringle jumper and looked like the worlds most boring accountant. Obviously I don’t know what his private life is really like but as far as I know he isn’t in prison and hasn’t made the news. He never had any kids. I suspect that outside of the catalyst of me, he’s as boring as I am without him. Together we were like petrol and a match but with other people I’m petrol and my husband is water and maybe Ben is a match and his new wife is also water. Who knows?

For Ben and I the main problem was booze and a shared problem with it. That may be the case for many people, as may drugs. I was powerless when it came to drink. I have a real problem with it that I can’t control. I will never be able to drink sensibly.

Our saving grace was not having kids and that was because I had a career and didn’t want them yet, but also just good fortune that I didn’t accidentally get pregnant and decide to have the baby. I’m a good mum and my now older kids are nice, normal and well adjusted and have never been abused, but I can’t tell you that if I had had them with a man I was so dangerous with, whilst heavily alcoholic, that I wouldn’t have abused them. I hope that I wouldn’t have, but I almost kicked a man’s head in to the point he died, that’s not really my brand now either, so I think we can safely assume that I might have been an abusive mother in that marriage.

None of that excuses who I was or excuses this boys parents, but normal people can go not normal when with people they spark off of in the wrong way. Alcohol and drugs have a big part to play, as does family dysfunction and family trauma and probably an element of some people just being bad. But the stars all have to be aligned to make these terrible things happen and the truth is that it’s not as simple as one thing, and you can have a bad person with no other elements, who is entirely benign, and a good person with alcohol abuse and trauma who goes on to kill.

There but for the grace of God go I and all that. I don’t know what the answer is, but cases like this do make me count my blessings.

@NameChangerSundayDriver I think you are incredibly brave to post that and to have turned your life around. I guess that ultimately that kick saved you both, in another dimension he might have died and you might be in prison. Sobering thought indeed.

The alcohol thing worries me, my father was a heavy drinker, died from the damage he did to his liver and kidneys when I was a child and I too repeated the pattern. I divorced my first husband in the end because I didn't want our children to see what would happen to him but inevitably they did see it, it was me who didn't. I've never drunk alcohol, I worked in a very boozy culture for many years and people seemed to think it was a great challenge to try and get me to drink but it actually made me more stubborn in the end.

@bluntness100*
I think the posters point is there is an undertone to your posts that mean he is somewhat culpable for these womens actions. They and they alone are responsible for their actions. As is he for his.

But looking at each of them in isolation misses the essence of the situation. They were in a relationship, they bounced off each other, and they committed this atrocious abuse together. She is as much responsible for his actions as he was for hers, as well as they each were for their own. They could have both stopped this, but they didn't, and why didn't they?

Aside from that it is simply interesting, from a rather macabre, psychological perspective.

Personally I think he should have also been tried for murder as whilst she delivered the final blow it was a joint enterprise. If he hadn't messaged about "ending him" etc and instead had messaged back that it was his son and to leave him alone, don't touch him etc, do you think she would still have beaten him to that degree?

Don't get me wrong, she was very intent on harming him and the poisoning and ill treatment and sly beating would have still happened imo. However he had the main duty of care to Arthur and he was terrified of his dad as much as he was of Tustin. I think I read something about the hairdresser and boyfriend also being frightened of Hughes and what he'd do if he found out they'd given the boy some water.

Equally culpable I'd say and hope he doesn't get out when he is able to apply and at least serves his complete sentence. I suspect Tustin will either manage to commit suicide or be murdered in jail before she completes hers.

Two social workers saw that little boy the day before. That emaciated sick limping little boy in pain, half poisoned by salt, sallow eyed, with hundreds of injuries, they had four reports, and those social workers deemed it all fine and walked out the house. Leaving him to be murdered the next day.

I don’t think this is the case. The last as social worker saw him was mid April when they attended but failed to see the bruises his grandmother had photographed the day before.

As far as Hughes is concerned- I am 100% certain there is no way Tustin would have began her hate campaign against Arthur unless she knew Hughes would accept it. I bet he was speaking appallingly to Tustin about his child from the first time he met her. (The child was already telling people he thought his dad would kill him) I also think he was already physically abusing him before he met her, and was probably telling Tustin all about it. Maybe even bragging.

I think he was already pressure pointing him so that there weren't any marks to be seen and Arthur saying his dad was hurting him could be denied as there were no bruises. Taking him with him to Tustin could have been a power move over his parents.

The came covid which gave them both an opportunity to do what they wanted without the risk of it being seen.

Had Hughes been a loving caring parent then I think Tustin would still not have liked Arthur (or he her) but this would never have happened to this end.

I can believe that maybe Arthur's behaviour might not have been perfect as he was a child who had been living in a toxic environment and then ripped from his mother and placed with someone who probably always saw him as a nuisance. Any stray into being not perfectly behaved (I mean what child is 24/7?) would probably result in cruel punishment from Hughes and the spiral continues.