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Original poster

3 year old up 'till 3/4am

169 replies

Cait73 · 23/10/2021 01:36

Previously pretty good sleeper we're now going to bed but getting up at 11pm staying awake 'till 3/4am

Apart from the obvious effects 2 hours sleep is having on me, he's super grumpy all day because he's tired

He's not had a daytime nap since he turned 2 and he was sleeping 6pm to 6am

Any ideas? I've tried being super boring ie just walking him back to his room, I've tried leaving the radio on quiet I've tried lying with him, anything I do works for 15/20 mins then he's up again

OP posts:
Meirou90 · 24/10/2021 04:28

What helped with my 3 year old was a star chart, she received a star on it for sleeping in her own bed all night. And if she has enough stars by the end of the week, she gets a reward. Might be worth a try?

Meirou90 · 24/10/2021 04:29

^I also bought a gro-clock

Kanaloa · 24/10/2021 04:59

@mathanxiety

Empty his room of all toys, and leave him to it. Make sure he can't let himself out to wander around in the night, and don't leave a light on anywhere to brighten the room, not inside the room or out in a hallway.

When you say he gets worked up does he cry? Call for you?

Definitely force a quiet time after lunch. Listening to a story on tape sounds restful.

A weighted blanket might be useful.

Have you tried white noise, in case there's anything disturbing him at 11pm?

Talk to your GP about melatonin if nothing else works. One mg would make a huge difference.

Are there any ASD traits present in your DS?

I don’t think melatonin is any type of solution because a 3yo isn’t sleeping 6pm-6.30am. A gp would just tell you to try a later bedtime, not medicate a child because they wake up for a few hours in the night.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

3 year olds Babies & sleep Children's sleep Families
Itsnotover · 24/10/2021 11:01

There's no way I'd ever give melatonin to a 3 year old unless they had a specific condition.

LittleBearPad · 24/10/2021 12:04

OP hope you’re ok. When he’s awake is he chirpy or upset. If he’s told to go back to bed does he get upset, cross what?

Try to keep him awake later today. It might reset things.

Original poster
Cait73 · 24/10/2021 12:42

He's overtired now so a bit hyper but generally okay, I walked him back to bed 14 times in the night he goes happily - just can't stay there

I'm praying tonight exhaustion will take over but I'm removing toys from room and I'll kept him up later

OP posts:
Original poster
Cait73 · 24/10/2021 12:51

@mathanxiety putting everything you've mention into place today thank you, all very positive ideas

Don't know about ASD he's my grandson removed as a baby from parents due to emotional abuse and neglect, he's not had previous issues but I was advised things may still crop up, his Dad missed contact 2 weeks ago which I know upset him

OP posts:
Original poster
Cait73 · 24/10/2021 12:53

@Kanaloa I collect him 3:30 he's already exhausted it's home, dinner, bath and he puts himself to bed he's always slept early but might be time for a change

OP posts:
LittleBearPad · 24/10/2021 13:15

Is there anything he loves on TV (I know screens yadda yadda) that would keep him interested later to keep him up a bit later.

Something calming not hype-y

Original poster
Cait73 · 24/10/2021 13:54

@LittleBearPad yes he loves Gigantosaurs he's been asking for it I said we're going to watch it at 6 when we're all snuggly

OP posts:
Original poster
Cait73 · 25/10/2021 06:41

Only up twice in the night; first time he settled (himself) very quickly second time he climbed into bed with me AND FELL ASLEEP!!

I feel brand new this morning

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 25/10/2021 20:32

@Kanaloa, melatonin isn't medication.

It's available otc in the US and doctors frequently advise it.

LittleBearPad · 25/10/2021 20:54

@Cait73

Only up twice in the night; first time he settled (himself) very quickly second time he climbed into bed with me AND FELL ASLEEP!!

I feel brand new this morning

Hurrah! I’m so pleased you got a decent nights sleep
CheshireChat · 25/10/2021 20:57

I allowed my son to have an audiobook running until he falls asleep to keep him calm and it's worked really well if that's something you'd consider in the future.

Original poster
Cait73 · 25/10/2021 21:18

@CheshireChat he always falls asleep to a story cd I wonder if I should leave it on repeat through the night?

OP posts:
CheshireChat · 26/10/2021 14:02

Does he wake up after it's stopped? In that case, I would.

Plus, some audiobooks are really long (Harry Potter is around 9hrs I think), but I guess he's a bit young for them.

Also, is he getting cold by any chance and waking up?

Kanaloa · 27/10/2021 06:50

[quote mathanxiety]@Kanaloa, melatonin isn't medication.

It's available otc in the US and doctors frequently advise it.[/quote]
Lots of things are available in the US over the counter. Doesn’t mean they’re the best solution.

Doctors will sometimes advise it but I seriously doubt a gp will prescribe it for a 3yo (who had had what sounds like a troubled start to life) simply because they aren’t sleeping right through from 6pm to 6.30am.

In my experience it’s difficult enough to get it prescribed to children who have autism and actually need it because they are sleeping a tiny amount per night and are exhausted, with gp’s normally suggesting later bedtimes, better sleep hygiene, more exercise etc.

mathanxiety · 27/10/2021 23:52

Lots of things are available in the US over the counter. Doesn’t mean they’re the best solution

Doesn't mean they're no help, or not advisable, and the fact that British doctors won't prescribe them for children with autism is perhaps more of a reflection on British doctors, not on melatonin.

The long term effects of long term poor sleep in children (and the adults who live with them) are clearly not taken into account.

After failure of all the usual behavioural interventions and modifications, the Canadian Pediatric Society recommends dosages from 1mg to 10mg depending on age (from infants to teens) to resolve insomnia.

Kanaloa · 28/10/2021 00:31

@mathanxiety

Lots of things are available in the US over the counter. Doesn’t mean they’re the best solution

Doesn't mean they're no help, or not advisable, and the fact that British doctors won't prescribe them for children with autism is perhaps more of a reflection on British doctors, not on melatonin.

The long term effects of long term poor sleep in children (and the adults who live with them) are clearly not taken into account.

After failure of all the usual behavioural interventions and modifications, the Canadian Pediatric Society recommends dosages from 1mg to 10mg depending on age (from infants to teens) to resolve insomnia.

Yes, IN FAILURE of all other modifications. OP hasn’t tried anything! And as she doesn’t live in Canada I don’t think what their Paediatric society suggests or recommends is very relevant.

No gp in the uk will suggest melatonin for a 3 year old because they aren’t sleeping 12 and a half hours every night. They will tell you to move bedtime later and increase exercise.

Kanaloa · 28/10/2021 00:33

And gps are quite right in suggesting changes to sleep hygiene and routine rather than encouraging parents to give melatonin. Some children don’t need 12 and a half hours sleep and 6pm is a very very early bedtime. Most three/four year olds aren’t asleep at that time.

mathanxiety · 28/10/2021 03:21

And as she doesn’t live in Canada I don’t think what their Paediatric society suggests or recommends is very relevant.

That's a really silly comment.

It works the same way on Canadian children as it would in British children. If the national organisation of Canadian Pediatricians is ok with it, it seems to me to be thoroughly obtuse of British GPs to eschew it.

The OP isn't complaining that her 3 yo grandson isn't getting 12 hours of sleep a night. I've personally never met a child who needed that much.

She can't deal with him only sleeping 2 hours per night, for weeks, keeping her up too, and being grumpy and hard to manage all day.

Kanaloa · 28/10/2021 04:33

He isn’t sleeping only two hours a night, you’ve just totally made that up. SHE is only sleeping two hours a night. He sleeps 6pm until 11, then 3/4am until 6.30am.

You can try and twist it round all you like but a suggestion of melatonin in this particular situation isn’t right. The child is being put to bed too early so is waking up for a few hours in the night.

We’ll need to agree to disagree because realistically it’s ridiculous to pretend melatonin is a good solution here. The child is being out to bed at 6pm and expected to stay asleep until 6am which is obviously more than he needs.

GingerScallop · 28/10/2021 05:27

@mathanxiety

Melatonin is medication in this case
It can be useful to treat sleep condition
But in this case, it's only been 16 days and not all behaviour modifications have been exhausted. The behaviour also coincided with his dad missing contact which could have caused the boy some anxiety or other emotional turmoil that triggered this
Very few toddlers will sleep 12 hours non stop
So melatonin while it might help is unlikely the best solution in this case

Op, great that last night was better. Hoping for more restful nights

mathanxiety · 29/10/2021 04:06

The most he is sleeping at any time is five hours. This is not good for him. He is grumpy and overtired during the day, very destructive, lots of meltdowns. Children who are 'trouble' at this age get a label and are treated in a way that is different from those who are well-rested, calm, and responsive to adults who care for them. The label can be the basis of a child's narrative about himself.

Kanaloa · 29/10/2021 05:15

@mathanxiety

The most he is sleeping at any time is five hours. This is not good for him. He is grumpy and overtired during the day, very destructive, lots of meltdowns. Children who are 'trouble' at this age get a label and are treated in a way that is different from those who are well-rested, calm, and responsive to adults who care for them. The label can be the basis of a child's narrative about himself.
Okay, more absolute nonsense that doesn’t in any way justify melatonin.

Altogether he’s sleeping about 8 hours a night. If he’s being ‘labelled’ due to behavioural issues. which I don’t think he is according to op, then of course she should seek professional help for him.