If people believe that new parenting techniques like naughty steps, no smacking, treat them as you would an adult (or there abouts) how come more of todays children are growing up to be so out of control, violent, rude, disrespectful etc etc???

[QueenofVenus]

It seems to me that the older generations child rearing techniques were more sensible, i think society will always have its little outlaws, but in comparison, older generations kids had more about them then ours!????

I think a big difference might be that in the past parenting wasn't just down to mum and dad, but the whole society - the local bobby, the school, the local shopkepper, etc. Nowadays this doesn't happen.

I don't think children are, on the whole, less well behaved. Almost all are good, but there is that significant minority. And if you look at the parenting techniques of a lot of that significant minority you will find that they may well not be the ones using the more "modern" forms of parenting strategies.

Certainly the young lads I work with in the prison were not brought up using a naughty step and almost every one was hit/smacked as a child too. However, what they didn't have was a good role model or example, someone to teach them their responsibilities (they know their rights well enough though), schools which had sanctions that could be used and that worked, a local policeman on the beat to watch over what they were up to, etc.

No deterents too. People can get away with murder these days. A couple of years is not punishment imo.

Heh Heh, you should have heard people bitching mabout troubles of children in the 1950s when the 'teenager' was invented!

What is your preposition based on? Do you have some kind of evidence that 'kids today' are more violent/disrepectful/out of control?

Dissing their elders is a bit subjective IMO, as is out of control, perhaps what bothers you more is that young adults or teenagers have more control over their lives than before and have the confidence not to just bow to authority based on age alone?

I think because most people seem to use the methods you describe....

most of the children I know are lovely

it is the small percentage in the media that you read about that everyone is up in arms with

they, in the main, have not had an upbringing at all, or any decent parenting and it upsets me to read of children of 12 with a record as long as their arm

who is nipping it in the bud when they are 8 for eg?

they do not need 'cracking down on' imo, they need guidance and someone to care for them for once

Do you really think the kids that are 'out of control, voilent' etc are like that because they've been put on the naughty step?! A bit simplistic.

I was thinking about this in a cafe the other day. There were 2 little boys (about 2 and 4) and they screamed at their parents and made demands of them the entire time they were there.

I watched what the parents did (given the noise it was hard to ignore them). They shouted aggressively at them a lot and made a lot of fairly physical threats and one got smacked (not hard). At no point were they ever not given what they wanted or taken out of the cafe.

I do not think that perceived changes in standards of behaviour are attributable to naughty steps v smacking or any other modern discipline techniques. I think that they are attributable to the fact that many children always get what they want and enduring a short term punishment is worth it for the medium term gain.

We use the naughty step and do not smack ? although have been pushed quite close! We do not treat kids as adults though as they do not have life experience and so the ability to make the best choices for themselves.

We do teach our children though that being kind hearted is the best thing that you can be ? that you must not be rude to or about others and you must treat everyone as you would expect to be treated.

Also we teach our kids that they are worth so much to us and to others ? we tell them that they make us extremely proud and so I think they realise that others are worth just as much ? as that is what I think is wrong with society today ? kids have no self worth so harming another individual or taking their life means nothing because they think others are worthless as lots of them have been brought up to feel like that.

Bit of a Christian point of view I suppose ? I was brought up Catholic and have brought DD up the same way ? we are trying with DS but he is hard at the moment ? although we hope we will get there one day!

I agree with olive. Most of the children I know are lovely, reasonably well-behaved and good company.

I think the assumptions in your Thread title / OP are wrong.

IME - professionally, with the children my organisation works with, and personally - kids I know and see around and at DS's school - the children who are out of control and engaged in anti-social behaviour are kids who have no parenting at all. Andd if there is any discipliniary intevention it is likely to come in the form of a slap or other violence - but uncontrolled and outside any consistent context of telling - or showing by good example - a child what is expected, or explanations of right / wrong etc.

IME the children of parents who take time to talk with their children, develop mutual respect, set firm consistent guidelines etc and find alternative discipline methods are NOT the ones who cause trouble.

I think you have a point Olive, of all the children i know of, the ones who are bad, naughty, rude out of control have no boundries, their parents will do anything just to keep them quiet and happy, but do nothing to ensure they learn whats right/acceptable V whats wrong/unacceptable!!
Plus, as some of you have said, if society and the laws therein had zero tolerance on ANY anti-social behavior, abuse, violence etc and did more than just dish out asbo's which to alot of kids are pretty much a medal of honour, then maybe, eventually new generations would show a serious marked improvement!!!

I do agree blu, but altho bad parenting contributes to alot of kids problems, do you not feel that some of the older 'traditional' punishments would work for kids nowadays that regardless of best intentions they are determined to rebel and cause carnage!

Depends on what yu mean by older 'traditional' punishments. If smacking then no, sorry I don't agree. You can bring up a child to be polite, well behaved and well mannered without having to hit them.

The kids i know who are out of control are also the ones who walk down the road being walloped or threatened with it. I think your assumptions are wrong.

I do have to say that I think there are some DCs that will go off the rails (for want of a better phrase) regardless of the parenting they receive. And conversely some DCs who will acheive a happy and successful life inspite of an appalling upbringing. I don't beleive that parents really are these all-powerful beings that can make or break a child regardless of every other factor. We can only do the best in the circumstances we find ourselves in. And quite often I have found myself doing things that I swore I wouldn't simply because life rarely follows the script we write for it. I will fully admit that I am a good-enough mother..and that means good-enough according to my standards not anyone else's.

I read something recently (my brain is half dead, I cannot remember where... possibly in the Guardian) quite relevant.
When children misbehave these days it is taken as a sign of a society in decay, and 'everything' in society is falling apart.
Apparently, a few decades ago when a child misbehaved it was taken as a sign of a few unpleasant individuals, and that was it...

Anyway, I completely agree with Blu and QueenofVenus, since I have seen it in my own family

International ages of criminal responsibility

Country Age
Bangladesh 7
India 7
Mexico 6-12*
Myanmar 7
Nigeria 7
Pakistan 7
South Africa 7
Sudan 7
Tanzania 7
Thailand 7
Indonesia 8
Kenya 8
UK (Scotland) 8
Ethiopia 9
Iran 9
Philippines 9
Nepal 10
United States 10
Australia 10
UK (England) 10
UK (Wales) 10
Ukraine 10
Turkey 11
Canada 12
Ireland 12
Korea, Rep. 12
Morocco 12
Uganda 12
Algeria 13
France 13
Poland 13
Uzbekistan 13
Austria 14
China 14
Estonia 14
Germany 14
Italy 14
Japan 14
Romania 14
Russia 14
Slovenia 14
Vietnam 14
Egypt 15
Finland 15[2]
Denmark 15
Norway 15
Sweden 15
Iceland 15
Philippines 15**
Argentina 16
Spain 16
Brazil 18
Colombia 18
International Criminal Court 18[3]
Peru 18
Belgium 18
DR Congo 18

In Scotland the age of criminal responsibilty is 8. When you are 8, you can be taken away from your parents because of something YOU have done, and placed in a place of correction. You will also have a criminal record.

EIGHT.

Places like Norway, Denmark etc tend to treat misbehavior before late teens as a developmental problem, and recommend counceling. Is it any wonder we have the highest rate of 'YOUTH' crime in Europe when we have the lowest rate of criminal responsibility by 5 years in Scotland? IE Scotland 8, France and Poland 13.

Making children criminals before puberty does nothing to encourage their parents to take responsibility - it encourages the thought that a child of 8 (or even 10) can be completely responsible for himself.

What Blu says.

According to my adult dc, dh and I have parented in a rather liberal manner compared to their friend's parents. However, it hasn't caused my dc to become anti-social annoyances. To me, they seem well-rounded human beings, with plenty to offer to society.

There are always some children who go off the rails despite their parents' best efforts, but for the most part I think the key to bringing up children is caring enough to be involved with them.

"do you not feel that some of the older 'traditional' punishments would work for kids nowadays that regardless of best intentions they are determined to rebel and cause carnage! "

Nope - not without a strong firm context which also praises good work, gives the child a sense of who they are and that they are worth something, in a world which is worth something.

In that context i don't think it makes much difference whether the punishments are 'traditional' or 'modern'.

Iran, out of interest has an age of criminal responsibility is 15 for boys, 9 for girls, so presumably if a 14 year old boy rapes a 9 year old girl, she'll be lashed for it.

I think we have a lot to learn from Iran

I agree with Blu.

I don't believe that children are less well behaved nowadays.

Nor do I believe that current methods of punishment (naughty step / time out) are any different to previous methods ('go to your room'). A punishment is a punishment.

Hopefully what is changing is that children are being listened to more and that adults are trying to understand their children rather than control them.

What's that, FairyMum?

I think the underlying premise of the OP is correct and I think the distinction is that the older generation did not feel they had to justify their authority.

I am shocked at the number of posts questioning a teacher's reprimand of a child. I believe in teaching children to respect authority in the form of teachers and parents. That's not the same as teaching children to be submissive.

I think we are teaching a generation of children not to respect authority and when you are a four year old who won't put your coat on, you should not have any authority in the situation.

When I was a school governor, we were told that the children had to be allowed to choose their own lunch, even if they chose biscuits (some of the pupils were only 5). If the dinner lady insisted that they take a proper meal, they could be reprimanded. Madness imho. 5 year olds should not be choosing what they eat if one of the options is biscuits.

I think an awful lot of it is down to perception because of the media. That is the case with many things - are our street REALLY more dangerous now than they were 60 years ago? or is it just because we see so many reports of attacks, violence, etc now that our perception is that things are worse.