Baptisms without consent...

[LC09122126]

New here and a First time poster and trying to find that AIBU section... I can't so here goes!

I've been separated from my child's father since last summer. Plans to have a christening were in place prior to us separating and COVID came and shit all over our plans. Ex was fine with me wanting to christen the little one when we were together (probably because he knew my family would mostly foot the bill, the absolute bum) He understood I was brought up in a close knit, church attending, large catholic family and was happy for this to be the way forward, with far better schooling prospects in the area where I live for the future.
I haven't discussed it yet, but I KNOW he will now refuse just to throw a spanner in the works.
It would make no odds to him either way, but he would do it to be awkward.
A: Can I do it without his consent? And B: Does anyone think I'm being unreasonable for wanting to do it that way?
Thanks in advance x

@LaurieFairyCake

I don't think I get why anyone would be annoyed

If you're not a believer then to you it's just pouring water on a kids head and saying a prayer right ?

Far more importantly he can involve himself in choice of school so if you did want a faith school he could get very difficult

So no, you don't have to tell him or have his consent to pour water on a kids head or take him to church - but you do legally have to agree schooling etc

I mean, this is how I would feel too but I most of my fellow atheist friends would find this appalling. I do get it, but of all the anti-religion hills to die on, it seems like an odd one.

I'm no expert, but I would think you can go ahead if you choose to. Presumably best way to find out is to ask a priest and they might help counsel you as to the ethical side of this matter.

I'm a non-believer. I admit that I would not have married anyone who had strong religious beliefs and for me the issue really would have been the whole baptism/confirmation/indoctrination thing. For me, it would just cause so many issues, confrontation etc.
I'm also puzzled about how you can square the whole separation thing with your beliefs? I know that isn't the issue but to me that seems as much of a problem. Sorry if I come across as hyper critical, I am just puzzled.

If he decided to baptize your baby in a different religion, whether he converted or out of spite, how would you feel?

I had a similar situation but I was on the side from you.

I go to church but my ex doesn’t. He wanted her christened, I did not. I grew up in a church that let the child decide when they were older and I felt HUGELY uncomfortable with the notion that she would be christened against my will. It really upset me.

So I would say no, it would be incredibly unreasonable for you to go against his wishes.

My minister offered a blessing as a compromise, but my ex eventually gave up on the idea and so we did nothing.

@LaurieFairyCake

I don't think I get why anyone would be annoyed

If you're not a believer then to you it's just pouring water on a kids head and saying a prayer right ?

Far more importantly he can involve himself in choice of school so if you did want a faith school he could get very difficult

So no, you don't have to tell him or have his consent to pour water on a kids head or take him to church - but you do legally have to agree schooling etc

If you're not a believer then to you it's just pouring water on a kids head and saying a prayer right ?

^This

@LoislovesStewie

I'm a non-believer. I admit that I would not have married anyone who had strong religious beliefs and for me the issue really would have been the whole baptism/confirmation/indoctrination thing. For me, it would just cause so many issues, confrontation etc. I'm also puzzled about how you can square the whole separation thing with your beliefs? I know that isn't the issue but to me that seems as much of a problem. Sorry if I come across as hyper critical, I am just puzzled.

We were not married, because I don't conform to how he wants women to be. But I don't understand where you think my beliefs 'square' it as you say?

Hypothetically - how would you feel if Dad took his child to another religion and had a deeply religious service performed which would result in a lifelong association with that religion.

Dad does this without your consent and your child is now a Baptist, or Muslim or a member of the Jewish faith? Would that be ok?

I get why you want your child christened and how infuriating it must be not to get Dad's agreement. But this is his child too.

Because it's a bit pick and mix, isn't it? S if having a baptism is important then all the other teachings etc are also important. I'm not being goady BTW I'm interested.

@LoislovesStewie

Because it's a bit pick and mix, isn't it? S if having a baptism is important then all the other teachings etc are also important. I'm not being goady BTW I'm interested.

Tbf, this is what I was thinking.

Also, you child doesn't have to be a Catholic to get into a Catholic school.
There were many none Catholics in my secondary school and several in my primary school. Obviously it helps though

@GintyMcGinty

Hypothetically - how would you feel if Dad took his child to another religion and had a deeply religious service performed which would result in a lifelong association with that religion.

Dad does this without your consent and your child is now a Baptist, or Muslim or a member of the Jewish faith? Would that be ok?

I get why you want your child christened and how infuriating it must be not to get Dad's agreement. But this is his child too.

To be honest, if the belief was the other way around and was agnostic/atheist I would probably go along with his decision. And if his view on schooling for the imminent future were great then I'd see that as an absolute bonus. As was the mindset he was in when we were a couple. Unfortunately we don't think the same way and it's one of the major reasons we're not together. It just took a global pandemic and being stuck together 24/7 to realise we were not a good match.

Does he have PR?

I’d be furious if my ex had our kid baptised without my knowledge.

You seem very sure he will object to it but you don’t seem to have bought it up with him, is it because you and him disagree about a lot now? Can you wait until you’re getting on better or is that unlikely to ever happen?

You can always baptise tomorrow, but you never unbaptise tomorrow.

Not if the child dies! That's why infant baptism is important. Do a bit of research on limbo.

I'm as atheist as they come, but I can't see an ethical problem with baptism.

OP, are you doing it for the theological consequences? In that case a DIY baptism is just as good as any other, or if you don't fancy that you could ask the priest to do privately - it will take seconds. Or are you doing it for the family get-together? That will be a bit more tricky.

Well, the last time you both talked about it, he agreed to it (while not wanting it to cost too much) . You could always go ahead, and down the line if he finds out say that he'd agreed to it previously, and you didn't think he was bothered about religion himself, you just did it quietly.
Or, if you do decide to ask him and he says no, you could get the priest to dedicate /bless the baby, without an actual baptism. A child doesn't actually need to be baptised or Catholic to get into Catholic school. If you're taking her to mass and then going to let her decide on baptism herself, you could tell the school that, and I'm sure she could have her baptism not long before her first confession and first holy communion, if she so chose (I'm thinking that if she goes to catholic school, she'll probably want to do all of those sacraments,like most of her friends will be doing).
I'm in a different situation with my mum, who is at me to get my daughter baptised (Catholic). I'm not going to,because although I was raised Catholic myself, I became a real Christian believer moreso in the last ten years or so, and I had a believer's baptism in the sea in 2013... I attend a non-denominational church... I believe in the believer's baptism, so I won't be doing it for my child when she doesn't even know what's going on...I will leave it up to her to decide later on.

Fyi some Catholic schools require baptism before either 1 or 2 (probably mostly just London) it might have changed since your day so do check!

Not if the child dies! That's why infant baptism is important. Do a bit of research on limbo.

The Catholic Church abandoned the concept of Limbo some years ago.

www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-limbo-idUSL2028721620070420

You discussed the baptism when you were together and he was fine with it. Therefore, in my book that mean he agrees. If it means so much to you, have it done. Even if it achieves nothing, which some will think, it is hardly going to hurt. Don't spread the word, just arrange and have the Godparents and any friends, relatives you are close to.

@MurielSpriggs

You can always baptise tomorrow, but you never unbaptise tomorrow.

Not if the child dies! That's why infant baptism is important. Do a bit of research on limbo.

I'm as atheist as they come, but I can't see an ethical problem with baptism.

OP, are you doing it for the theological consequences? In that case a DIY baptism is just as good as any other, or if you don't fancy that you could ask the priest to do privately - it will take seconds. Or are you doing it for the family get-together? That will be a bit more tricky.

www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/world/europe/21briefs-limbo.html

The Pope abolished limbo in 2007.

We had this scenario recently, we only went ahead because the fathers name is not on the birth certificate therefore legally had no authority. If there's an absent parent we either need their consent or something legal to say only the presenting parent has authority

Limbo was a myth.

Presumably you go to church, op, speak to your priest about it.

OK so I expect to be flamed but I had my child baptised without my ex's consent.

Like you OP we both agreed we would like our child baptised, and had talked about arranging it. Me and ex are both baptised ourselves (same religion) but split before getting round to arranging it.

The breakup was acrimonious, abuse on his part plus family court etc. The baptism was highlighted in court and we were told to arrange it between ourselves. All my ex seemed to be bothered about was getting to choose a godparent.

So I went ahead and arranged it anyway without him. I had no problems with the Church and no questions were asked about the father.

Word got back to my ex via my child as they remember having water poured on their head! We have the same conversation every time we drive past the church.

Ex was livid (understandably) but what was very clear from his emails was that he was more annoyed about not picking a god parent and his family not getting the opportunity to attend. There was nothing in there relating to religion but then he couldn't object as our child has been baptised into the same religion as us. I haven't confirmed or denied getting child baptised either.

Slightly different to your situation OP but if I were in your shoes I'd straight up try and organise it without him knowing.

I also doubt you could get it done as afaik most sacraments including baptism require those involved (both parents in this case) to be involved in the preparations which includes a talk with the priest.

Nope. Anyone can perform a baptism, it's not a sacrament which requires apostolic succession.

It would make no odds to him either way, but he would do it to be awkward.

If that's genuinely the case I would just do it. MN would massively agree on any other issue but as soon as you say the C word people are against it.

Even Vegans get less shit here.

I'd be more concerned that you are not waiting for the baptisee to be able to consent.

Limbo was a myth.
Just limbo? The rest is all true?

[quote HoldingTheDoor]Not if the child dies! That's why infant baptism is important. Do a bit of research on limbo.

The Catholic Church abandoned the concept of Limbo some years ago.

www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-limbo-idUSL2028721620070420[/quote]
Thank you @HoldingTheDoor and @HirplesWithHaggis. I was brought up Catholic, but clearly my knowledge has been superceded (although I thought it was all timeless and eternal!).

The Reuters report does include this quote:

“The conclusion of this study is that there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in revelation,” it said.

“There are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible (to baptize them).”

So not really much guarantee there, and for practical purposes then, I'm not sure that abolishing limbo makes much difference. I would not want to gamble with the fate of the immortal soul of my child for all eternity on some vague hopes! I'd be in the downstairs loo with a bit of water and a whispered prayer.