Worried about my 4yo DD

[RubaDubMum89]

This is going to be a long one, so I'll summarise here:
DD 4, 5 at the end of the year, has been hurting the animals. Last week she cut both the cats ears with scissors. Today she's pulled loads of feathers out of the chickens. I'm at my wits end. Would you start proceedings with a Dr for her to see someone or am I over reacting?

Long version:

We had some problems with DD when she was younger - 2.5ish - smacking the cats and throwing stones at them etc. We spent a long time explaining to her how the cats have feelings, when she was hurt it's not nice and that's how the cats feel etc and the behaviour stopped. We've not thought anything of it since then. Now it's resurfaced.

To give you an idea of DDs personality - she loves animals, she's generally a kind and loving child, she's even had a couple of certificates from nursery for always being super kind to everyone. The cat she hurt is like her best friend, they've grown up together, play together, sleep together, when she's hurt and she crys he comes running from where ever he is to snuggle her, it's is (was?) a really beautiful relationship.

Then, last week, I saw the cat walking around with two bloody ears. I knew straight away what had happened - when I'd been cleaning upstairs I'd come down to find DD chopping paper up with the nail scissors we'd forgotten to put away - I knew she'd cut his ears and my heart sank. I felt sick. I asked her about it, I couldn't shout at her because I knew I'd go too far, and she denied it, then after asking a few more times she told me, she'd been making paper dinosaurs and the cat was in the way so she cut him. I asked if she knew what she was doing and she said she knew it would bleed and it would hurt him. She couldn't tell me why she would want to hurt him.

After I'd cleaned the cat up I took away all of her toys. They're all in the loft and she's earning them back day by day. All treats were cancelled, no puddings, no chocolate or treat food and no TV at all until she's shown us she can be nice again.

We debated at the time taking her to see someone, the Dr probably and hoping they could refer her on, but after a good 5 hour discussion and tears we decided we'd wait and see, as the behaviour is so very out of character we wanted to believe it was a stupid thing done by a 4yo who lacks comprehension.

Everything has been going great. The first incident with the cat was exactly a week ago today, she's earned a few toys back, she got to watch TV for 30 mins after tea last night and she's been her usual loving self with the cats. Then this morning, I was in the bathroom with the door closed and she pushed a chicken feather under the door. Then another. Then another. Until there was 10/11 of them.

I asked her if she'd pulled them from the chickens and she said no, to which I said in all the time we've had them, we've not had but 3 feathers fall out and she said I was right, she'd pulled them from the chickens. Again we've had the same conversations (me and her) she's promised not to do it again and I've taken a couple of her toys she'd earned back away. She's also no longer allowed to go near the chickens, which she was upset about.

Honestly, I don't know what to do. Do I take her to see someone? Do I seriously consider rehoming the animals now? I'd like this to be a VERY last resort as I adore all my animals and many of them predate DD but I'm worried what the next incident will be now. I don't know, my mind is all over the place. I'm worried about her, to say the very least and I'm devastated this is happening.

We're quite strict with DD and hold her to a high standard with behaviours and manners. We won't tolerate rudeness or back chat. She's never physically punished, we operate on a 3 warning system then she's sent to her bedroom. Maybe we're too strict? Is this a power play? But then it feels ridiculous to react to bad behaviour by being less strict?

Before I ramble anymore - AIBU to be so worried? Or am I totally over reacting?

You need to rehome the animals now- the poor cats 😞 also take them to the vets- big infection risk.

There is absolutely no alternative but to rehome the animals, they're probably terrified.

Your daughter needs to see a doctor.

Completely agree, you must rehome the animals ASAP. Yes, I'd also seek a medical assessment for your DD.

I'm sorry you're in this situation, it must be tough. I have a daughter the same age and I can imagine bring in your position, I'd be very worried. I would seek help. I not sure where, possibly psychology initially?

I can see why you’re worried. Putting the feathers under the door sounds like a plea for attention, so I would be considering whether she’s getting enough positive attention from you - do you interact more with her when she’s bad than when she’s good? Does she feel you give the animals more or kinder attention than you do her?

But regardless, this deliberate cruelty to the animals is concerning - she is old enough to know she is hurting them - and in my limited experience, beyond any normal ‘acting out’ for attention.

Vet, rehome and a proper, through clinical assessment for dd with paid therapy and support if nhs is not enough or imminent.

I agree tbh, the animals need to see a vet (cat) and then rehomed likely away from a family with children. Then speak with your doctor to find the next steps for further help. All the best x

Your dd needs formal help. And do not let her near the animals ever.

I agree with other, re-home the animals, it's not fair on them. And yes, get an appointment for your doctor as this is pretty worrying behaviour.

You need to bear the responsibility for this because a 4 year old can't be expected to. She cut the cats ears because you left scissors within her reach. Don't punish her for this, learn from it. And rehome the animals but don't make her feel like it's her fault they've gone. You're the parent

Personally I'd say if she were 6 or older...I'd be very worried. At 4 I think she understands that if you cut a cat it will bleed and she 'theoretically' knows it would hurt but she's not old enough to properly understand hurting another creature.

We took my DS to see a child play therapist (through the BAPT website) about a different issue but found it really useful. A thorough assessment over 12 weeks and a holistic approach with us as a family.

Oh dear

@Beetlewing disagree. A child may see scissors within easy reach and cut their fringe maybe! Not a bloody living animal! That's not normal and not OP's fault.

This child needs serious psychological help. The feathers under the door doesn't sound like a cry for help to me- its showing off/manipulative.

I'm a med student.

I do agree that your daughter needs you to speak to your GP so that they can give you some more advice on whether or not this is within the boundaries of normal or not and go from there. I don’t think you should rehome the pets though. I went through a stage where I was very mean to our family cats... not to the extent of cutting them but mean, would be very rough and I did chop off one of the poor sods whiskers at about the same age (I know it’s not the same, but it was bad behaviour.... that I somehow managed with very blunt Early Learning scissors). Despite all this I am a very normal adult with uninjured pets of my own now.

Good luck.

I think just rehome the animals for their sake but although its upsetting i dont think this necesarily means your daughter has psychological problems. I agree that 4 is young and she maybe cant comprehend the animals feelings properly as they cant say "ouch" or "stop that". I would rehome the animals but see how your daughter develops over the next few years. Kids can be insensitive at that age i dont think it necesarily means there is something majorly wrong.

She's 4 yes, this is very worrying behaviour, and we know about the link between psychopathic behaviour and animal Cruelty in childhood .. however I would give it a bit more time , as starting the process of camhs now might have her labelled for life .. spend Time talking to her about empathy and understanding the impact of her behaviour on the animals and talk about scenarios regarding people and feelings.. trust your gut on this and if another situation about her hurting animals or people I think you're gonna have to bite the bullet and flag it up to your GP and start the process.

@MrsTulipTattsyrup

I can see why you’re worried. Putting the feathers under the door sounds like a plea for attention, so I would be considering whether she’s getting enough positive attention from you - do you interact more with her when she’s bad than when she’s good? Does she feel you give the animals more or kinder attention than you do her?

But regardless, this deliberate cruelty to the animals is concerning - she is old enough to know she is hurting them - and in my limited experience, beyond any normal ‘acting out’ for attention.

I only work part time, so DD gets the majority of my attention. We're very rarely in the house for a full day and she goes to nursery 3 days a week. We've always got something going on, she's not often left to her own devices for long periods of time.

If anything, the animals come secondary to her on a day to day level, she's always been involved in the care of them - cleaning the coop, feeding the hens, egg collecting, feeding the cats and brushing them etc it's always tasks we've done together and she's seemingly enjoyed.

I think I will ring the Dr's though, we need to get to the bottom of this one way or another

*09Beetlewing

You need to bear the responsibility for this because a 4 year old can't be expected to. She cut the cats ears because you left scissors within her reach. Don't punish her for this, learn from it. And rehome the animals but don't make her feel like it's her fault they've gone. You're the parent*

Think this is quite harsh. Yes leaving scissors out with little ones isn't ideal but also she should know not to harm a living creature. If she had cut up her bed cover o would be less concerned.

I have two nearly 4 year olds and they can be trusted with scissors.

I do think she needs an assessment. Is she generally impulsive? I'm thinking ADHD is a possibility but too little to be considered at this age. Impulsivity is often a bigger issue than hyperactivity. If it's not impulsivity then it's a bit more worrying.

Keep her away from the cats. Re-home if you can't keep them safe.

@PragmaticWench

Personally I'd say if she were 6 or older...I'd be very worried. At 4 I think she understands that if you cut a cat it will bleed and she 'theoretically' knows it would hurt but she's not old enough to properly understand hurting another creature.

We took my DS to see a child play therapist (through the BAPT website) about a different issue but found it really useful. A thorough assessment over 12 weeks and a holistic approach with us as a family.

Thanks I'll look into that this evening. Did you pay for it and if so was it pricey? I'd happily pay for some therapy for DD, we're just not very well off so need to consider what can be cut back on to afford it!

Your DD needs to see the GP so you can access help quickly.
Can't even bring myself to say my thoughts on the animals.

IF this is real, regime the animals NOW and seek urgent clinical help for your daughter. You must realise this.

I feel so sad for your cat however I'm also amazed it let your daughter get so close as my cat avoids my older kids like the plague so I would imagine that up till then your daughter must have been calm and kind to the cat . Also suprisee cat didn't lash out in defence.
I would definitely be speaking to gp and school or nursery to see if any other aggressive behaviour seen .
Make sure the cat has an escape route at all times as well

@Beetlewing

You need to bear the responsibility for this because a 4 year old can't be expected to. She cut the cats ears because you left scissors within her reach. Don't punish her for this, learn from it. And rehome the animals but don't make her feel like it's her fault they've gone. You're the parent

I'm less sure about immediately re-homing the animals, but otherwise I agree with this. I think your 'punishment' was ill-advised and has possibly made it into more of a 'thing'. She's still pretty young, what is her impulse control like generally?

Whatever else you do, you need to commit to keeping her apart from the animals indefinitely apart from when someone can be actively supervising. If for any reason that isn't possible, then yes they should be re-homed, for all of your sakes.

This is a hard situation and as an obvious animal lover must be very distressing for you.

Four year olds aren't always over burdened with empathy and some with social learning delays or differences may not link consequences with actions. But something here is going amiss and perhaps a conversation with your HV or GP would be helpful. This may not (read almost definitely won't) lead to a clinical diagnosis of any sort but may highlight other areas of need.

Your parenting style sounds quite punitive and your daughter may be rebelling against this and trying to take back control. I really enjoy Dan Hughes, Sarah Naish and Kim Holdings therapeutic or reward driven parenting styles. It works well for our kids who have strong personalities that will see them well in life but make them challenging to parent.

This is not your fault, but don't be scared about changing your approach

[quote tempconcerns]@Beetlewing disagree. A child may see scissors within easy reach and cut their fringe maybe! Not a bloody living animal! That's not normal and not OP's fault.

This child needs serious psychological help. The feathers under the door doesn't sound like a cry for help to me- its showing off/manipulative.

I'm a med student. [/quote]
This is exactly what I thought this morning, like a - look at what I've got mummy kind of thing, but then I didn't know if I was crediting her with too much intelligence. She's not a slow child, she's always been rather intelligent but never malicious. Her actions as a younger child were from ignorance not malice. Until now obviously.

She needs professional help, this isn't something you can deal with alone. I have a DC the same age and I'd have phoned the GP straight away for a refferal to someone who knows what they're doing.

I'm gobsmacked the cat didn't savage her back tbh. But you need to remove the animals, and if she attends a preschool, they also need to be made aware if they're planning on having animals in.