Worried about my 4yo DD

[RubaDubMum89]

This is going to be a long one, so I'll summarise here:
DD 4, 5 at the end of the year, has been hurting the animals. Last week she cut both the cats ears with scissors. Today she's pulled loads of feathers out of the chickens. I'm at my wits end. Would you start proceedings with a Dr for her to see someone or am I over reacting?

Long version:

We had some problems with DD when she was younger - 2.5ish - smacking the cats and throwing stones at them etc. We spent a long time explaining to her how the cats have feelings, when she was hurt it's not nice and that's how the cats feel etc and the behaviour stopped. We've not thought anything of it since then. Now it's resurfaced.

To give you an idea of DDs personality - she loves animals, she's generally a kind and loving child, she's even had a couple of certificates from nursery for always being super kind to everyone. The cat she hurt is like her best friend, they've grown up together, play together, sleep together, when she's hurt and she crys he comes running from where ever he is to snuggle her, it's is (was?) a really beautiful relationship.

Then, last week, I saw the cat walking around with two bloody ears. I knew straight away what had happened - when I'd been cleaning upstairs I'd come down to find DD chopping paper up with the nail scissors we'd forgotten to put away - I knew she'd cut his ears and my heart sank. I felt sick. I asked her about it, I couldn't shout at her because I knew I'd go too far, and she denied it, then after asking a few more times she told me, she'd been making paper dinosaurs and the cat was in the way so she cut him. I asked if she knew what she was doing and she said she knew it would bleed and it would hurt him. She couldn't tell me why she would want to hurt him.

After I'd cleaned the cat up I took away all of her toys. They're all in the loft and she's earning them back day by day. All treats were cancelled, no puddings, no chocolate or treat food and no TV at all until she's shown us she can be nice again.

We debated at the time taking her to see someone, the Dr probably and hoping they could refer her on, but after a good 5 hour discussion and tears we decided we'd wait and see, as the behaviour is so very out of character we wanted to believe it was a stupid thing done by a 4yo who lacks comprehension.

Everything has been going great. The first incident with the cat was exactly a week ago today, she's earned a few toys back, she got to watch TV for 30 mins after tea last night and she's been her usual loving self with the cats. Then this morning, I was in the bathroom with the door closed and she pushed a chicken feather under the door. Then another. Then another. Until there was 10/11 of them.

I asked her if she'd pulled them from the chickens and she said no, to which I said in all the time we've had them, we've not had but 3 feathers fall out and she said I was right, she'd pulled them from the chickens. Again we've had the same conversations (me and her) she's promised not to do it again and I've taken a couple of her toys she'd earned back away. She's also no longer allowed to go near the chickens, which she was upset about.

Honestly, I don't know what to do. Do I take her to see someone? Do I seriously consider rehoming the animals now? I'd like this to be a VERY last resort as I adore all my animals and many of them predate DD but I'm worried what the next incident will be now. I don't know, my mind is all over the place. I'm worried about her, to say the very least and I'm devastated this is happening.

We're quite strict with DD and hold her to a high standard with behaviours and manners. We won't tolerate rudeness or back chat. She's never physically punished, we operate on a 3 warning system then she's sent to her bedroom. Maybe we're too strict? Is this a power play? But then it feels ridiculous to react to bad behaviour by being less strict?

Before I ramble anymore - AIBU to be so worried? Or am I totally over reacting?

That sounds so worrying for you OP. At 4 years old they are still developing empathy and theory of mind and don't really understand how anyone else feels, however I do think you need to speak to your GP or health visitor because knowing how to best deal with the behaviour is key to avoiding making it worse. The chicken incident following so closely on suggests your response had the opposite effect and that she is testing what your reaction will be next and where the boundaries are. I have a 4 year old DD and I don't think this is typical behaviour at all, I don't think it's your fault for allowing access to scissors, I don't limit my DD's access to scissors, she is more safety conscious than the rest of us and I can't imagine her cutting a toy or doll let alone an animal. I'm certainly not trying to armchair diagnose but my brother has ADHD and was a very scientific child and did things similar to this with insects, without thinking it was anything other than fascinating to observe until he saw our horrified reactions. He is a nurse now actually, but has had support along with the way.

You can’t have any animals around her, it’s dreadful that people are saying don’t rehome them, let them get tortured and mutilated even more. Come on, it’s unethical to keep these animals at risk.

This is very concerning and if my son ( 9 months old at the moment) did this in a couple of years time , I'd be very, very worried.

I'm sorry you're going through this, this must be absolute hell.

I second other posters though that you mustn't ignore this and you need to get on top of this now.

And yes, please rehome the cats and chickens , they deserve better.

My children are adults now, but they wouldn't have dreamed of hurting our animals when they were 4 years old, and they were crushed whenever one of our animals got sick or injured. I would be removing the animals and getting your daughter assessed as soon as humanly possible.

Absolutely speak with your doctor, you need a referral for professional help. This type of behaviour is abnormal and a red flag - there is a difference from being unkind to an animal to hurting an animal.

From a safe guarding perspective, children hurting animals can be a sign of abuse, either victim of or witness. Just something to keep in mind.

I’ve seen kids of a similar age stamp on an ant or kill a ladybird or similar because they have lacked the empathy and impulse control or didn’t understand what would happen- I’ve always come down on that like a ton of bricks and educated them on why that is so far from acceptable pronto.

This is on another level. These are much loved family pets and it’s a deliberate act of torture without a thought to the consequences. I honestly have never come across a four year old who would have acted in this way.

@sowhatsnext

Hi OP

I maybe a disagreeing voice but I don’t think you should get rid of your animals. Restrict unsupervised contact between them and your daughter definitely; but to get rid at this point I think is too simplistic - you wouldn’t not use the oven if your child got burnt, but teach better practices around it.

With that I’m not saying it’s ok that the animals got hurt, but just that getting rid isn’t the only option here. Keeping the animals and making sure your daughter interacts with them in a positive manner under supervision is in my mind the way to go.

I’m curious what the cat did when she cut him - to allow her to do the other one? But that’s slightly off topic!

I'm hoping this is the way to go, I love my animals dearly and would be absolutely devastated to get rid of them all, although I absolutely will do if necessary. We've no option for temporary Foster, none of the family would be willing to take them - it's a big ask. So the only other option would be to permanently rehome them if/when the time comes. It puts a lump in my throat just thinking about it all.

All I can think about the cat is it didn't really feel it? They're both clean cuts and have healed nicely, no infection or anything and he wasn't pawing at his head or crying in pain. I'm not saying that to say it makes it any better. It makes me feel sick still thinking about what happened and I'm reminded of it everytime I look at the cat.

Thanks for all your responses so far. I'm definitely going to get in touch with the Dr. I didn't last week as I think I was trying to Bury my head in the sand, it's all just too much to comprehend. I can't believe we're in this situation and I'm finding it difficult to cope with. I was hoping it was done with and she'd learned her lesson until the chicken incident today.

The chickens are very placid things and will happily follow you round the garden, they're really tame and will be stroked and sit on your knee, so I can easily see the feathers incident happening without too much fuss from them. Especially if she did it when they were eating. We've a fence along the patio to keep the chickens off it, so I'm going to put a lock on that to prevent her accessing the rest of the garden and the chickens. I can put a lock on the tortoise tank too and the fish are too far out of reach for her even with a chair. I'll have to start shutting her bedroom door at night to stop the cats getting in with her and just keep a really close eye on her with them.

She's currently upstairs having a tantrum because she can't have a milky bar for a snack after nursery. It's going tk be a long afternoon.

Also to say, that if she does have some anti social disorder, the warning system of punishment may not work. As for her, the pleasure of doing something 'wrong' could outweigh the threat of punishment. And the way the brain is wired means she will not learn from punishment, but she will from reward. It might explain why she plucked the feathers soon after her punishment of losing toys - it didn't really make a difference to her.

So you definitely for her to be assessed to know how best to discipline her.

@minipie

What’s she been watching on TV OP? Any chance she’s copying something she has seen there (cartoon violence towards animals being quite common in kids’ TV)

Any chance she is witnessing RL violence somewhere else… long shot as nothing in your OP suggests this, but this can be a symptom apparently

I think it’s also worth speaking to her pre school to see if they have ever had any concerns that she lacks empathy or isn’t bothered about hurting others

I don’t think you need to jump straight to the worst conclusion as some PPs seem to be, but definitely need to not leave her unsupervised with animals, and a chat with the GP wouldn’t hurt.

Good luck, how very difficult.

It's mostly peppa pig, duggee, barbie shows on Netflix, team titans etc nothing that isn't age appropriate. I'd be surprised if she's seen violence anywhere else IRL as the only time she spends without us is when she's at nursery.

I'm going to chat with her nursery teacher in the morning - she wasn't there at pickup today - but I'd be surprised if they have any concerns either. Like I said in the OP, she's had a certificate from nursery for always being super kind to everyone. I'm flummoxed. It seems so very out of character for her, she really is usually a kind and loving girl.

I'm questioning our whole approach to parenting her now, maybe we've gone drastically wrong somewhere?!

I don't think you've gone drastically wrong but it's quite 'out there' for boundary pushing behaviour.

You say you're strict - what kinds of things does she get the three warnings for. In my house (5 year old, 4 year old and 18 month old) there is a lot of 'can you pack that in please?!' when they are carrying on or making a load of mess or whatever and they do get told off if they do something they know is naughty or mean, but I don't do any naughty step or time-out stuff. It's possible I'm too permissive, but there's no way my children would draw on the furniture or anything like that and they are generally quite nice children.

I too, fear this will escalate. The animals need to be protected, I implore you on that score.

And this behaviour needs clinical evaluation as it is extremely worrying and not normal.

Gosh how difficult for you. Rehoming the animals could be counterproductive to DD, especially if she is close to the cat. That said you need to be able to keep them safe, and if you're not confident you can maybe it will have to be done. She is still little, and while you are right to be concerned and seek help, there does seem to be some very mumsnetty overaction in some of the replies. At 4 my eldest was cheerfully pushing, shoving and on occasions biting other children. He's now a well balanced 23 year old, with a 1st class degree, house, partner and good job..he didn't grow up to be a psychopath as helpful friend suggested at one point. You sound very articulate and level headed, and whatever is or isn't going on with your daughter I'm sure you'll give her the support she needs.

Did you say "ears" as in plural? As in she made more than one cut into the animal?

Something as suggested a child play therapist (through the BAPT website) A thorough assessment over 12 weeks and a holistic approach as a family.

Behaviour is communication
What is she communicating?
Removeing everything toys does not sound very productive

Remove the animals yes
Let her see the direct consequence

Not sure she can really link milky bar with hen feathers ....

But go see a professional who can work with whole family

Kids do cut hair whiskers fur etc
All pretty normal
Ears is extreme but doesn't meaN she s a psychopath

Also get
how to talk so kids will listen book

Kids can and do experiment with cutting things like hair, furniture, clothes etc at times. However, it is definitely not normal to cut something that can inflict actual pain on a living creature.

OP, mumsnet is not a place to come for any kind of nuance or common sense. The replies on this thread aren’t helpful to you.

I totally understand why you’re so concerned about this behaviour, but you don’t need to brand your daughter a sociopath. 4/5 is when children are developing empathy, not when they’re masters in it. It’s actually developmentally normal for children to have huge empathy blind spots which they eventually overcome, and they grow into perfectly normal children.

There is lots you can do to work on a child’s empathy skills. A child psychologist can help you with this if you can afford to, but if not there are books, websites and online courses which can assist you. This isn’t a sign that you’re a bad parent or that your daughter is an irredeemable animal torturer. She just needs help with the development of this specific skill, and that’s ok.

As for rehoming your animals - you can decide for yourself if that’s actually necessary. If you can e sure your daughter isn’t left alone with them and that they are therefore safe, there’s no reason not to keep them. I expect you can find practical solutions to ensure their safety without rehoming them.

Please ignore the nastiness and hysteria of other posters. This is a very upsetting and distressing situation, but there is so much you can do to help your daughter and no reason to believe she can’t be taught to treat animals properly.

I understand why you're concerned op but it might not be anything to worry about. At such a young age I think it's hard to say whether she is acting with malicious intent or whether it was more of a general curiousity, or even if she's copying something she's seen elsewhere. Actually does she ever watch YouTube unattended? I know that can show unsuitable videos if you don't have strict settings.

Try not to blame your parenting or yourself. I think speaking to a GP is a good first port of call, or a private child psychologist if you can afford it.

As for the animals, I'd make sure DD isn't left with them unattended for now, but wouldn't jump into getting them rehomed.

@SnappyMcSnapface

OP, mumsnet is not a place to come for any kind of nuance or common sense. The replies on this thread aren’t helpful to you.

I totally understand why you’re so concerned about this behaviour, but you don’t need to brand your daughter a sociopath. 4/5 is when children are developing empathy, not when they’re masters in it. It’s actually developmentally normal for children to have huge empathy blind spots which they eventually overcome, and they grow into perfectly normal children.

There is lots you can do to work on a child’s empathy skills. A child psychologist can help you with this if you can afford to, but if not there are books, websites and online courses which can assist you. This isn’t a sign that you’re a bad parent or that your daughter is an irredeemable animal torturer. She just needs help with the development of this specific skill, and that’s ok.

As for rehoming your animals - you can decide for yourself if that’s actually necessary. If you can e sure your daughter isn’t left alone with them and that they are therefore safe, there’s no reason not to keep them. I expect you can find practical solutions to ensure their safety without rehoming them.

Please ignore the nastiness and hysteria of other posters. This is a very upsetting and distressing situation, but there is so much you can do to help your daughter and no reason to believe she can’t be taught to treat animals properly.

This is some sanity in a sea of hysteria. She is your lovely little girl, who has made an error in judgement or not controlled an impulse, but at four years old who doesn't. I am sure before this happened you couldn't imagine your daughter doing this, as through the more empathetic eyes of an adult it seems so cruel. The cat is barely harmed, the chickens feathers will grow back and your daughter will develop greater empathy.

A chat with the GP is in order, a reward based parenting strategy about kindness to animals and just take it step by step. Knee jerk reactions never solve anything and parenthood is constantly moving goalposts

Glad to see some more sanity has started to seep into this thread. Not sure how anyone could call a 4yo a psychopath/sociopath

@Moomin12345

The bad news is that if she is clinically sociopathic, there is no real cure. I'd rehome the animals.

Really helpful

I’m sorry to ask so bluntly OP, but is there any chance that somebody is hurting your daughter?

Her behaviour is unusual and would indicate, to me, that she is emotionally troubled.

I would ask your GP to do an urgent referral. Speak to nursery as well, they may have access to other sources of hell that may be quicker than your GP.

Help not hell!

She might have really bad impulse control. I did as a child. I did shocking things to my little brothers out of impulse. When I look back I’m horrified!

That sounds really distressing. I wonder if the feather incident was linked to your response to the cat incident. Sometimes 'abstract' punishments like that can seem a bit like a game to a child, especially an intelligent and curious child - almost deliberately sabotaging things to see what happen, as she's confident she can reverse any consequences with a bit of good behaviour. Maybe keep sanctions more straightforward and less drawn out in the future, and directly linked to the incident. E.g. maybe the cat could have gone to stay somewhere else for a while until she showed that she was able to be kind to animals.