Worried about my 4yo DD

[RubaDubMum89]

This is going to be a long one, so I'll summarise here:
DD 4, 5 at the end of the year, has been hurting the animals. Last week she cut both the cats ears with scissors. Today she's pulled loads of feathers out of the chickens. I'm at my wits end. Would you start proceedings with a Dr for her to see someone or am I over reacting?

Long version:

We had some problems with DD when she was younger - 2.5ish - smacking the cats and throwing stones at them etc. We spent a long time explaining to her how the cats have feelings, when she was hurt it's not nice and that's how the cats feel etc and the behaviour stopped. We've not thought anything of it since then. Now it's resurfaced.

To give you an idea of DDs personality - she loves animals, she's generally a kind and loving child, she's even had a couple of certificates from nursery for always being super kind to everyone. The cat she hurt is like her best friend, they've grown up together, play together, sleep together, when she's hurt and she crys he comes running from where ever he is to snuggle her, it's is (was?) a really beautiful relationship.

Then, last week, I saw the cat walking around with two bloody ears. I knew straight away what had happened - when I'd been cleaning upstairs I'd come down to find DD chopping paper up with the nail scissors we'd forgotten to put away - I knew she'd cut his ears and my heart sank. I felt sick. I asked her about it, I couldn't shout at her because I knew I'd go too far, and she denied it, then after asking a few more times she told me, she'd been making paper dinosaurs and the cat was in the way so she cut him. I asked if she knew what she was doing and she said she knew it would bleed and it would hurt him. She couldn't tell me why she would want to hurt him.

After I'd cleaned the cat up I took away all of her toys. They're all in the loft and she's earning them back day by day. All treats were cancelled, no puddings, no chocolate or treat food and no TV at all until she's shown us she can be nice again.

We debated at the time taking her to see someone, the Dr probably and hoping they could refer her on, but after a good 5 hour discussion and tears we decided we'd wait and see, as the behaviour is so very out of character we wanted to believe it was a stupid thing done by a 4yo who lacks comprehension.

Everything has been going great. The first incident with the cat was exactly a week ago today, she's earned a few toys back, she got to watch TV for 30 mins after tea last night and she's been her usual loving self with the cats. Then this morning, I was in the bathroom with the door closed and she pushed a chicken feather under the door. Then another. Then another. Until there was 10/11 of them.

I asked her if she'd pulled them from the chickens and she said no, to which I said in all the time we've had them, we've not had but 3 feathers fall out and she said I was right, she'd pulled them from the chickens. Again we've had the same conversations (me and her) she's promised not to do it again and I've taken a couple of her toys she'd earned back away. She's also no longer allowed to go near the chickens, which she was upset about.

Honestly, I don't know what to do. Do I take her to see someone? Do I seriously consider rehoming the animals now? I'd like this to be a VERY last resort as I adore all my animals and many of them predate DD but I'm worried what the next incident will be now. I don't know, my mind is all over the place. I'm worried about her, to say the very least and I'm devastated this is happening.

We're quite strict with DD and hold her to a high standard with behaviours and manners. We won't tolerate rudeness or back chat. She's never physically punished, we operate on a 3 warning system then she's sent to her bedroom. Maybe we're too strict? Is this a power play? But then it feels ridiculous to react to bad behaviour by being less strict?

Before I ramble anymore - AIBU to be so worried? Or am I totally over reacting?

Seriously unsettling to read.
Yes, good grief take the pets to the vets and rehome asap.
Get your DD immediate professional help, she’s definitely not exhibiting normal behaviour more like serial killer in the making behaviour! Jesus!

I really think you need to seek the professional help of a child psychotherapist.

Her behaviour is concerning and out of the norm.

You need to make sure she didn't have the opportunity to hurt them again.

At the same time thinking you've raised a sociopath is catastrophising. She's not either a kind loving child OR an aggressive child. She's both.

We all have hatred and aggression. Just that by the time we get to our age we suppress it and control it.

All sorts of things could be going on.

She might really love the animals AND also hate and be jealous of them and how much you love them. She might be worried about her place with you as she grows up heading to school. She might at times feel extremely angry about being made to feel small under the strict discipline and vengeful and ruthless.

Usually in a child of four when hatred is felt is possible for them also to bring to mind the simultaneous love, which tempers and mitigates the hatred and aggressive instincts.

It might be that your DD for whatever reason is a bit delayed in her emotional development.

A far cry from big that she is constitutionally psychopathic.

How much does she know and talk about starting school? Something is troubling her but she has not the first clue or capacity at her age to be able to articulate it.

@Suzi888

Seriously unsettling to read. Yes, good grief take the pets to the vets and rehome asap. Get your DD immediate professional help, she’s definitely not exhibiting normal behaviour more like serial killer in the making behaviour! Jesus!

Oh behave ffs, what a foul post.

"with a change in tactic and very careful monitoring we can return to a happy household and maybe in a few months, if nothing else happens and we continue drilling into her about animals having feelings etc and praising her for positive interactions with the animals, then she can resume her relationship with the cat."

"We can return to a happy household" - you're putting responsibility for the happiness of the household on a 4 year old?!

And you're saying that maybe in a few months she can "resume her relationship with the cat"? So you're going to punish her for months by telling her she can't have a "relationship" with the cat? How else can she make amends if not by continuing to interact with the cat and being gentle and not aggressive?!

I mean this kindly, but you really need therapy and to rethink your parenting.

@Suzi888

Seriously unsettling to read. Yes, good grief take the pets to the vets and rehome asap. Get your DD immediate professional help, she’s definitely not exhibiting normal behaviour more like serial killer in the making behaviour! Jesus!

For goodness sake this is a little child who needs help not a serial killer in the making.

Jeez.

@RubaDubMum89

Have you had any therapy to discuss your own abusive upbringing in relation to your experience of parenting? Becoming a parent can stir up childhood trauma. It can be so difficult to navigate when you don't have a positive experience to build on

I haven't. I can't face it. I don't think I'll ever be ready to face it. I don't want to go into detail as I don't think it's that relevant, what happened to me has left permanent emotional and physical scars but it's all very well suppressed and I'm at a stage, in my 30s where I no longer think of it everyday or month even. I know, wholeheartedly, that DD is not being brought up in that kind of environment and I'm happy to learn and adapt my approach and that's good enough for me, rightly or wrongly.

My heart goes out to you. It is very difficult to do therapy.

But I think you should. It could change things for you and DD much for the better.

You just have to take the plunge. It's not easy but it is worth it.

I kind of wonder whether you have been wondering too about this deep down.

@Bumpsadaisie animal mutilation- that’s how some start.
As previous posters said, IF this is a real thread.

Yeah I’m surprised the cat stayed to let her cut the other ear. 99.9% of cats would have sliced her arms to ribbons and flew off. Seems odd they stayed still enough for the other to be cut

"My mumsnet cat can actually read in several languages, can't yours?"

This genuinely made me laugh, on an otherwise sobering thread.

My cat is definitely a sociopath.

She probably didn’t realise the ears are different from say the whiskers or the hair. Would you have been so worried if she’d cut his hair?
She’s only 4. I think some of the hysterical responses on here are frankly ridiculous.
Don’t let her be unsupervised around the animals and maybe get some therapy as you sound like you’d benefit regardless.
There are lots of different ways to parent being slightly stricter, in the context of a loving family, isn’t going to cause your child to have serious behavioural problems. By all means identity things you may change as a parent but it’s sounds like your doing a great job.

@NameChange30

"with a change in tactic and very careful monitoring we can return to a happy household and maybe in a few months, if nothing else happens and we continue drilling into her about animals having feelings etc and praising her for positive interactions with the animals, then she can resume her relationship with the cat."

"We can return to a happy household" - you're putting responsibility for the happiness of the household on a 4 year old?!

And you're saying that maybe in a few months she can "resume her relationship with the cat"? So you're going to punish her for months by telling her she can't have a "relationship" with the cat? How else can she make amends if not by continuing to interact with the cat and being gentle and not aggressive?!

I mean this kindly, but you really need therapy and to rethink your parenting.

Sorry, I've not expressed myself well, a happy household as in we can put this incident behind us and me and her dad can stop worrying about it. Of course the happiness of the household doesn't DEPEND on her like she has to amend her ways to fix it, that's just ridiculous. You just surely understand though that this is now always in the back of our minds?

I also mean resume her relationship with the cat as in we're not monitoring her interactions with him. I'm not willing to allow him to sleep in her room with her or be alone with her. Right now, that's a risk and until I'm assured her behaviour has changed.

Keep her away from the animals completely. I'm not sure rehoming is the answer because that just removes the problem, rather than addressing it

( And other similar comments)

Surely the point of rehoming is to protect the animals?

OP
I'm sure your daughter will be fine, and she is just developing her empathy.

I still think your animals need to be protected, and that you are minimising the distress they endured.

I wish I could report you to RSPCA. Disgusting down playing of the hurt to animals you’re deliberately choosing to ignore.

You've had some very good advice on this thread, mixed though the responses have been. I can see you are taking it on board, and won't try to add to the specifics.

One thing that has struck me that might be useful though. I had a very articulate child who "spoke early and often". She learned how to respond to us verbally in advance of her understanding how we interpreted those responses. So we (probably from the age of 2) got used to always explaining things to her verbally and thought she understood due to her replies. There came a point where I started to understand that I needed to simplify and also to check her understanding better (for a while her father didn't which was a problem). I can't remember all that much (she's about to finish school now!), but one example that helped me, was asking her to tell me "why did you have to go on the naughty step?" and realising how often she couldn't answer / didn't understand the real reason even when I thought we'd just discussed it.

So perhaps checking her understanding rather than her ability to say what you expect someone to understands to say, may help you work out where your parenting could change to become more effective. Agree about working on the positives.

Good luck. Parenting is always a journey and always has unexpected turns in it.

Hi,
I don’t have any experience as such of a child hurting an animal, however my son also had the breakdowns etc from a young age and came across as rude. He was also very articulate from a young age and is intelligent. He is now 8 and up until recently I blamed myself and my parenting for his behaviour. What have I done wrong, should I change this and that etc. Other people judged me / us and made comments like some of those on this thread. He is now undergoing assessment for adhd and autism, I’m not saying your daughter is autistic, I’m just trying to make the point that there may well be something else going on and it’s important you don’t crucify yourself for your parenting, when it may actually be you have done nothing wrong. You’re doing your best, no one expects their child to hurt a much loved family pet and I can understand that it must be extremely distressing

@Puntastic

FWIW, I don't think time outs are harmful. It's easy for people with naturally obliging kids to say they'd never put a four year old in time out- only you know what parenting your kid is like. etc. and the, 'I understand that you feel x because you want to do y, sometimes I feel like y because I can't do something I want to too. At the same time, ..." discussions. Sometimes they work. In fact, I'd say most of the time. I would say one minute per year of age though- ten minutes is excessive. And we use it as our top flight, this-is-serious-and-dangerous-behaviour, zero tolerance response, reserved for hitting, kicking or biting OR where we've tried everything, the behaviour is dangerous and she's still doing it despite the usual strategies.

My favourite parenting book is 'What good parents do', but a lot of them are excellent. You're looking for one that shows you how to implement authoritative parenting, rather than authoritarian parenting.

Yikes. Massive editing fail. I'll try again, hang on:

FWIW, I don't think time outs are harmful. It's easy for people with naturally obliging kids to say they'd never put a four year old in time out- only you know what parenting your kid is like. I would say one minute per year of age though- ten minutes is excessive. We use it as our top flight, this-is-serious-and-dangerous-behaviour, zero tolerance response, reserved for hitting, kicking or biting OR where we've tried everything, the behaviour is dangerous and she's still doing it despite the usual strategies.

My favourite parenting book is 'What good parents do', but a lot of them are excellent. You're looking for one that shows you how to implement authoritative parenting, rather than authoritarian parenting.

I think an assessment with a psychologist who uses a very gentle method like play therapy certainly can't hurt, but I'd be very reluctant to tell her what or why your doing, just keep it very light and fun and make out that it's a treat.

I would also ask why a four year old was on her own with scissors? This is quite young to be unsupervised at all really, so perhaps also explore the situation in your home, whether this is a plea for more attention and supervision. Children this age need lots of boundaries and rules to feel safe, and supervision and attention is also a safe and nurturing situation for them. They are still building their attachment and look to you to set the limits on their behaviour.

(I'm a psychologist but not a child psychologist so know something about this but not enough really. I'd urge you to seek some professional advice)

I’m a Nursery teacher and I completely disagree with the poster who is a psychologist!
Don’t ask leading questions? You were probably upset, it’s hard not to! Yes it’d be better to ask what happened but sometimes a direct question is needed to get to the truth.
If it was me I would absolutely hammer the point home by being over the top.No we can’t play out there because you hurt the chickens. The chickens might feel frightened that you’re going to hurt them. We can’t play with the cat today because her ears are still sore. Normally a new day is a fresh start but I think you have to make it abundantly clear to her what the consequences are of her actions. She needs to be bothered enough to never do it again.

As for the example of 20 minutes pestering her grandad, that was too long. Don’t allow behaviour like that to continue so it’s dragging on.

Finally, get rid of the guilt about your brief split from her dad. I know some children who have had terrible upbringings (not your dd) and they would still be held to account if they hurt animals. You can’t let her see you show weakness on this. There are no excuses and she has to learn. Doesn’t matter if she doesn’t do it at Nursery, she did do it at home and twice! Good luck.

OP, while I would be concerned about this I also think that it’s worth remembering that everyone on here appears to be experts in parenting other people’s children.

Just because someone on here says you’re doing it wrong, doesn’t necessarily mean that you are. And people are very quick to jump to “rehome the animals immediately” response.

I would be concerned about the behaviour not least because it’s happened twice. But I would speak to the GP rather than rush to see child psychologists etc.

There is also nothing wrong with telling a 4 year old that what she has done is wrong. It is, and she needs to know that. And while removing all her toys may have been a harsh punishment, I think that it’s natural to react strongly to an incident like this, and it’s an impulsive reaction.

Also there’s nothing wrong with time-out. Some people don’t like using it, that’s fine. But these seem to be the same people who think that you can’t reason with a 4 year old and that 4 is too young to be taught right from wrong. Their’s is most definitely not a parenting approach I personally would have pursued.

Certainly I would supervise more closely and I would definitely let her know why the cat is no longer allowed in her room at night. She’s old enough to know right from wrong, and if she doesn’t yet know she’s old enough to start to learn.

But I wouldn’t rush to rehome the animals and I also wouldn’t rush to blame yourself or start saying you’re a bad parent.

There’s no such thing as a perfect parent. No child comes with a handbook. We all go into parenting blind, and we all learn the hard way. Sometimes it’s the wrong way and we learn from that, but as long as there isn’t actual abuse involved we all parent our children differently because all children are different.

There’s no such thing as a perfect parent. No child comes with a handbook. We all go into parenting blind, and we all learn the hard way. Sometimes it’s the wrong way and we learn from that, but as long as there isn’t actual abuse involved we all parent our children differently because all children are different.

This. Doesn't hurt to read around different methods though, especially if you're unsure.

SnappyMcSnapface
OP, mumsnet is not a place to come for any kind of nuance or common sense. The replies on this thread aren’t helpful to you.

I totally understand why you’re so concerned about this behaviour, but you don’t need to brand your daughter a sociopath. 4/5 is when children are developing empathy, not when they’re masters in it. It’s actually developmentally normal for children to have huge empathy blind spots which they eventually overcome, and they grow into perfectly normal children.

There is lots you can do to work on a child’s empathy skills. A child psychologist can help you with this if you can afford to, but if not there are books, websites and online courses which can assist you. This isn’t a sign that you’re a bad parent or that your daughter is an irredeemable animal torturer. She just needs help with the development of this specific skill, and that’s ok.

As for rehoming your animals - you can decide for yourself if that’s actually necessary. If you can e sure your daughter isn’t left alone with them and that they are therefore safe, there’s no reason not to keep them. I expect you can find practical solutions to ensure their safety without rehoming them.

Please ignore the nastiness and hysteria of other posters. This is a very upsetting and distressing situation, but there is so much you can do to help your daughter and no reason to believe she can’t be taught to treat animals properly.
This is some sanity in a sea of hysteria. She is your lovely little girl, who has made an error in judgement or not controlled an impulse, but at four years old who doesn't. I am sure before this happened you couldn't imagine your daughter doing this, as through the more empathetic eyes of an adult it seems so cruel. The cat is barely harmed, the chickens feathers will grow back and your daughter will develop greater empathy.

A chat with the GP is in order, a reward based parenting strategy about kindness to animals and just take it step by step. Knee jerk reactions never solve anything and parenthood is constantly moving goalposts

this !

cruelty to animals is not ok, but she is 4. she probably doesn't have the reasoning or ability to verbalise why she did what she did, or what her thoughts and feelings were about it. it doesn't mean she s inherently bad or a psychopaths.

the first behaviours elicited attention and then the second behaviour elicits more attention.

your punishments seem extreme for a 4 year old

i m concerned you are leaving her upstairs to tantrum - how is she learning to regulate or respond when she is left alone with huge emotions.

i would prioritise reading the parenting books suggested above ( ..... dan hughes, and everyday parenting by kim goldberg )

play therapy is good and can be a slow process but it is great need some support around your strategies and responses in parenting, to have a repertoire of understanding a toolkit of approaches as a parent that will suit you and your child

Hello OP. You've had a lot of very dramatic responses. If we could be sure that your daughter knowingly wanted to cause the cat and chickens pain then, yes, there should be concern (but still not some of the ridiculous responses on here). But we can't know that. Our hair and nails don't hurt to cut, so your DD may not really know that it would have hurt the animals. Her empathy will not be fully developed at 4. Or 5. You say that she has well-developed emotional intelligence, but the tantrums suggest otherwise. Bright, articulate children can easily fool us into thinking they understand much more than they really do. G

Your aims of raising a polite and unspoilt child are great. But given what you've described of your parenting style and your own experiences of being parented, I wonder if you might not have the right parenting 'tools' for what you're trying to achieve?
On the whole, children (and adults!) need to be able to understand what they're feeling and learn how to manage it before they have any hope of doing the right thing. Our job as parents is to teach our children how to regulate all these strong feelings they have. So when they have tantrums, our job is to help them understand what they're feeling and acknowledge that it's ok to feel like that. Note that this does NOT mean 'giving in' to the tantrum. Have a look at emotion coaching on YouTube. It's a really straightforward way of learning how to support children's emotional development whilst keeping boundaries firm. It's helped me reflect on my parenting style (was definitely an 'emotion dismisser!') It's also got a strong evidence base. I know you've had a lot of suggestions and it can feel overwhelming, but twenty or thirty minutes on YouTube should be enough for you to figure out if this resonates with you.

My worst nightmare is having an entitled, rude, demanding and spoilt brat for a child. I know people with young kids that have never said please in their life and speak to their parents like dirt and get exactly what they want by stamping their feet

But being strict with your child won’t stop them becoming entitled rude, demanding and a brat. From what I have seen with those that were strict it is exactly what you will get.

No amount of chats and love is going to make up for the fact you won’t let your dd be a 4 year old.

None of the things you say you punish your child for I would consider are things that warrant being punished for.

Mine were loud and messy and never tidied up their toys. They would have tantrums if they were over tired or just because they were frustrated with things not going their way or because they felt like it. It never crossed my mind that these were things to be punished.

Describing your child as headstrong when she is just being a normal 4 year old and punishing her for it. I am no psychologist but I think this is where it all stems from.
If you won’t let her have feelings no matter how irrational they are. Won’t let her get upset without punishment then it has to come out another way.

@MoMuntervary

Hello OP. You've had a lot of very dramatic responses. If we could be sure that your daughter knowingly wanted to cause the cat and chickens pain then, yes, there should be concern (but still not some of the ridiculous responses on here). But we can't know that. Our hair and nails don't hurt to cut, so your DD may not really know that it would have hurt the animals. Her empathy will not be fully developed at 4. Or 5. You say that she has well-developed emotional intelligence, but the tantrums suggest otherwise. Bright, articulate children can easily fool us into thinking they understand much more than they really do. G

Your aims of raising a polite and unspoilt child are great. But given what you've described of your parenting style and your own experiences of being parented, I wonder if you might not have the right parenting 'tools' for what you're trying to achieve?
On the whole, children (and adults!) need to be able to understand what they're feeling and learn how to manage it before they have any hope of doing the right thing. Our job as parents is to teach our children how to regulate all these strong feelings they have. So when they have tantrums, our job is to help them understand what they're feeling and acknowledge that it's ok to feel like that. Note that this does NOT mean 'giving in' to the tantrum. Have a look at emotion coaching on YouTube. It's a really straightforward way of learning how to support children's emotional development whilst keeping boundaries firm. It's helped me reflect on my parenting style (was definitely an 'emotion dismisser!') It's also got a strong evidence base. I know you've had a lot of suggestions and it can feel overwhelming, but twenty or thirty minutes on YouTube should be enough for you to figure out if this resonates with you.

This is such a sensible, compassionate response, with brilliant advice to boot.