Worried about my 4yo DD

[RubaDubMum89]

This is going to be a long one, so I'll summarise here:
DD 4, 5 at the end of the year, has been hurting the animals. Last week she cut both the cats ears with scissors. Today she's pulled loads of feathers out of the chickens. I'm at my wits end. Would you start proceedings with a Dr for her to see someone or am I over reacting?

Long version:

We had some problems with DD when she was younger - 2.5ish - smacking the cats and throwing stones at them etc. We spent a long time explaining to her how the cats have feelings, when she was hurt it's not nice and that's how the cats feel etc and the behaviour stopped. We've not thought anything of it since then. Now it's resurfaced.

To give you an idea of DDs personality - she loves animals, she's generally a kind and loving child, she's even had a couple of certificates from nursery for always being super kind to everyone. The cat she hurt is like her best friend, they've grown up together, play together, sleep together, when she's hurt and she crys he comes running from where ever he is to snuggle her, it's is (was?) a really beautiful relationship.

Then, last week, I saw the cat walking around with two bloody ears. I knew straight away what had happened - when I'd been cleaning upstairs I'd come down to find DD chopping paper up with the nail scissors we'd forgotten to put away - I knew she'd cut his ears and my heart sank. I felt sick. I asked her about it, I couldn't shout at her because I knew I'd go too far, and she denied it, then after asking a few more times she told me, she'd been making paper dinosaurs and the cat was in the way so she cut him. I asked if she knew what she was doing and she said she knew it would bleed and it would hurt him. She couldn't tell me why she would want to hurt him.

After I'd cleaned the cat up I took away all of her toys. They're all in the loft and she's earning them back day by day. All treats were cancelled, no puddings, no chocolate or treat food and no TV at all until she's shown us she can be nice again.

We debated at the time taking her to see someone, the Dr probably and hoping they could refer her on, but after a good 5 hour discussion and tears we decided we'd wait and see, as the behaviour is so very out of character we wanted to believe it was a stupid thing done by a 4yo who lacks comprehension.

Everything has been going great. The first incident with the cat was exactly a week ago today, she's earned a few toys back, she got to watch TV for 30 mins after tea last night and she's been her usual loving self with the cats. Then this morning, I was in the bathroom with the door closed and she pushed a chicken feather under the door. Then another. Then another. Until there was 10/11 of them.

I asked her if she'd pulled them from the chickens and she said no, to which I said in all the time we've had them, we've not had but 3 feathers fall out and she said I was right, she'd pulled them from the chickens. Again we've had the same conversations (me and her) she's promised not to do it again and I've taken a couple of her toys she'd earned back away. She's also no longer allowed to go near the chickens, which she was upset about.

Honestly, I don't know what to do. Do I take her to see someone? Do I seriously consider rehoming the animals now? I'd like this to be a VERY last resort as I adore all my animals and many of them predate DD but I'm worried what the next incident will be now. I don't know, my mind is all over the place. I'm worried about her, to say the very least and I'm devastated this is happening.

We're quite strict with DD and hold her to a high standard with behaviours and manners. We won't tolerate rudeness or back chat. She's never physically punished, we operate on a 3 warning system then she's sent to her bedroom. Maybe we're too strict? Is this a power play? But then it feels ridiculous to react to bad behaviour by being less strict?

Before I ramble anymore - AIBU to be so worried? Or am I totally over reacting?

I feel for you op. I would get in touch with the gp ASAP and ask them to help.

Okay, calm down. This is bad but she's hardly A monster who can never be trusted near an animal ever again.
I think it would be wise to seek play therapy as suggested but equally, she's a small child with some understanding but not a full appreciation of how serious this is.
I think the ideas around positive attention are sound. While this is massive to you, it isn't to her. Of course you have to discuss it but punishment should be immediate and perhaps dragging it out with winning things back detracts from the original offence and muddles the punishment on her mind.
Scissors are thrilling to a small child. Many cut their own or a sibling's hair off. The cat was possibly in the wrong place at the wrong time and the incident with the chickens and putting the feathers under the door implies it is done more for your reaction than because she wants to see an animal in distress.
Keep a much closer eye on her. Punish then let it go and keep the positive rewards for behaviour separate to the punishments for bad.

I have a four year old and cats. Theoretically he has access to scissors all the time (they are in a high cupboard but he's not stupid and knows how to get the step out) but I don't think it would ever occur to him to do something like that. I also have a 5 year old and both of them have been occasionally boisterous with the cats, chasing them a bit or waking them up when they are asleep, that kind of thing, but never hurting them (and they were always told off for that behaviour).

I don't think it's normal and to be honest the chicken feather under the door thing sounds like something from a scary film.

We probably all know that a lot of people who grow up to be violent offenders 'practice' on animals as children. I'm sure you know this and it will be a terrifying thought.

Keep her away from the animals completely. I'm not sure rehoming is the answer because that just removes the problem, rather than addressing it. I would call the GP immediately as well.

@idontlikealdi

IF this is real, regime the animals NOW and seek urgent clinical help for your daughter. You must realise this.

Believe me I absolutely wish it wasn't real

You need to rehome the animals and until you do, your daughter must never be let out of your sight while she can get access to them.

She needs some psychological help - quickly.

@AlexaTurnItDown

She needs professional help, this isn't something you can deal with alone. I have a DC the same age and I'd have phoned the GP straight away for a refferal to someone who knows what they're doing.

I'm gobsmacked the cat didn't savage her back tbh. But you need to remove the animals, and if she attends a preschool, they also need to be made aware if they're planning on having animals in.

I cannot understand why he didn't attack her either. He's a really docile cat though, they've grown up together, he's 3,shes 4. It makes it that much worse because he loves and trusts her so much. He's not been put off being around her either - I obviously watch them together like a hawk now but he's not avoided her at all

@tempconcerns

You need to rehome the animals now- the poor cats 😞 also take them to the vets- big infection risk.

There is absolutely no alternative but to rehome the animals, they're probably terrified.

Your daughter needs to see a doctor.

Exactly this for the first port of call. Those poor animals shouldn’t be anywhere near her!

Those poor defenceless animals, please rehome them and then get your daughter seen by a professional. That is utterly heartbreaking.

Impulse wise she's pretty good. We have occasionally thought about her having some kind of additional needs because of the way she reacts to things, for example, being told no can either be a total none event or result in her screaming the house down.

We've not pursued any kind of assessment up until now though because shes so young and it's difficult to differentiate between normal behaviour for her age and what should be concerning. Also, the few behavioural issues we've had have been pretty much eradicated with consistent boundaries etc. It's a total mine field at the moment and I'm not ashamed to say I'm in way, way over my head.

I think you need to contact your dr, now, and ask for help. At 4 years old all of mine would have had access scissors when doings arts and crafts in a house full of dopey animals who would have Ben next to them on all likelihood. Never a spangle incident of anything by approaching this.
The fact that it's occurred to your daughter to harm them is very concerning. At 4 she's old enough to understand what's she's doing. Cut=blood=hurt etc.
Fit now I would never leave your dd alone for a moment, keep her well away from the animals and then seek medical help immediately.
Have you called your GP? Spoke to nursery? They might be able to help you with a urgent referral.

Your animals need rehoming / fostering (but please get the cat checked at the vets first) and your daughter needs to see a dr quite urgently.

It is far from normal behaviour to cut a cat's ears at her age. I could just about understand her trimming its whiskers or fur in a weak moment of curiosity / temptation if she found the scissors unattended, but a child of almost 5 knows for sure that cutting a living creatures ears is cruel and will hurt.
Likewise plucking the chickens. The poor things

I cannot understand why he didn't attack her either. He's a really docile cat though, they've grown up together, he's 3,shes 4. It makes it that much worse because he loves and trusts her so much. He's not been put off being around her either - I obviously watch them together like a hawk now but he's not avoided her at all

You must be heartbroken by it. And he must still trust her. It's such a shame. But they both need to be kept safe.

My immediate instinct is that the cats should be rehomed immediately but on reflection I'd probably keep her away from them unless supervised and tell her that, if she hurts them again, they will have to go to a new home where they will be safe.

I'd make an appointment with your GP and ask whether they think she needs to see someone. It's not uncommon for children to hurt animals and not all children who do so grow up with psychologically damaged, so don't panic. But in your shoes I would take it further - if there is a problem there, early intervention will be important.

How on earth did she manage to cut the cat's ear? And both ears?

I get scratched to fuck trying to put flea stuff on my cat, there's no way my almost 4 year old would be able to pin a cat down and snip its ears?

How did she pull feathers from the chicken? Did she corner it, pin it down? Did it fight back?

These things do not seem impulsive to me, you would need to be very, very determined to cut a cat's ears. And very good physical skills, not many 4 year old's can competently use scissors one handed.

I have one very docile cat and I can't imagine it sitting there letting someone cut it again after the first time. I don't have chickens but I can't imagine them just sitting there while someone plucks the feathers. It's odd.

My four year old (and he's just four) had the usually impulse control things - he might throw something or hit out when he's having a tantrum or something, but what she's doing isn't that so I don't think it's about normal impulse control stuff.

Short term I would contact my GP and speak to them. I would also be talking to her nursery.
I would call the vet and get the cat seen, I don't know if the chickens need seeing too?
I would keep my daughter with me at all times. Literally wouldn't let her out my sight. If this isn't possible I would see if I could temporarily rehome the animals- if not possible then permanent rehoming.

I'm so sorry you are going through this, you must be terribly worried and upset.
Try not to jump to conclusions.
As counter intuitive as it sounds, I would be spending more time with my daughter- playing with her, showing her love, giving her more control etc.
I have a 4 year old, and she is still very impulsive. She often does things to see what will happen or how it looks- drew on my sofa just Sunday. She will steal and hide things, has started biting us again.

The bad news is that if she is clinically sociopathic, there is no real cure. I'd rehome the animals.

Hi OP

I maybe a disagreeing voice but I don’t think you should get rid of your animals. Restrict unsupervised contact between them and your daughter definitely; but to get rid at this point I think is too simplistic - you wouldn’t not use the oven if your child got burnt, but teach better practices around it.

With that I’m not saying it’s ok that the animals got hurt, but just that getting rid isn’t the only option here. Keeping the animals and making sure your daughter interacts with them in a positive manner under supervision is in my mind the way to go.

I’m curious what the cat did when she cut him - to allow her to do the other one? But that’s slightly off topic!

What’s she been watching on TV OP? Any chance she’s copying something she has seen there (cartoon violence towards animals being quite common in kids’ TV)

Any chance she is witnessing RL violence somewhere else… long shot as nothing in your OP suggests this, but this can be a symptom apparently

I think it’s also worth speaking to her pre school to see if they have ever had any concerns that she lacks empathy or isn’t bothered about hurting others

I don’t think you need to jump straight to the worst conclusion as some PPs seem to be, but definitely need to not leave her unsupervised with animals, and a chat with the GP wouldn’t hurt.

Good luck, how very difficult.

OP you must be heartbroken. I don't think you should rehome your animals but I do think you need to make sure things like scissors etc are well out of reach and your DD needs watching like a hawk. I'm not sure what help the GP could offer but it's a starting point.

Jesus Christ.

That’s pretty much all I have to say on that. And I can’t believe some posters are trying to justify it because she’s 4. The vast majority of four year olds know you don’t bloody well torture animals. I’m not entirely convinced this is genuine but I if it is, get her away from animals and throw money at therapy so you don’t wait. You don’t seem concerned enough to be honest, and nor do a lot of these posters.

But yeah, she also must have excellent fine motor skills to be able to cut both the cat’s ears....

I don’t think you need to jump straight to the worst conclusion as some PPs seem to be, but definitely need to not leave her unsupervised with animals, and a chat with the GP wouldn’t hurt.

This is best advice -

@SmidgenofaPigeon

Jesus Christ.

That’s pretty much all I have to say on that. And I can’t believe some posters are trying to justify it because she’s 4. The vast majority of four year olds know you don’t bloody well torture animals. I’m not entirely convinced this is genuine but I if it is, get her away from animals and throw money at therapy so you don’t wait. You don’t seem concerned enough to be honest, and nor do a lot of these posters.

I posted on this, it's not that I'm not concerned enough, it's just that my initial thoughts on it were too horrifying to post and I didn't want to completely scare the OP.

Did she show any remorse for cutting the cat when questioned? I think I'd be concerned that she told you she knew the cat would hurt and bleed when she did it, and did it anyway. That alone should be a reason to talk to a GP and get an appointment for some pyschological testing. Children with ASD can struggle to understand that something causes pain, but children with anti social disorders understand something causes pain and do it anyway.

How does she interact with other children?

Children can be mean and lacking empathy, but this is 2 occassions she has caused hurt to animals with no remorse, so yes, you should get a professional assessment so you can deal with it appropriately.