Horrific play date

[SapphosRock]

I am mortified. DD is 5 and in year 1. She is quite highly strung and has the occasional meltdown but otherwise just a normal 5 year old.

Obviously there have been no play dates due to lockdown so this was her first proper one. A lovely little girl in her class bubble (let’s call her Lily) invited her over after school.

I arranged to collect DD after an hour as I know she can get overtired so thought this would be enough. Had a big talk with DD about manners, playing games Lily wants to play as well as her own (she struggles with this), being kind. DD can be sweet and charming and was confident the play date would go well.

Well, I’ve never been so embarrassed in my life. Lily’s dad was clearly very ready for DD to leave. Apparently they couldn’t agree on what game to play and she’d kicked Lily’s bookcase over. She was wearing one of Lily’s dresses and refused to take it off. She then refused to leave. Had a full on meltdown when i tried to help get the dress off, screamed, shouted, ran into Lily’s Dad’s bedroom, pulled his curtains and tried to get in his bed, shouting ‘no no no no’ the entire time and ‘worst play date ever’.

I would have physically carried her out but I had baby DS with me too so couldn’t carry them both. I asked if we could return the dress at school tomorrow to make a quicker exit but this made Lily cry so I had to get it off DD.

No exaggeration DD kept up the meltdown for over half an hour with Lily and her dad staring at us with shocked faces. I was apologising profusely and trying to calm
DD down enough to leave. In the end I had to leave DS with them, carry DD to the car with her kicking, screaming and clawing at my face, lock her in the car and go back to retrieve DS. It was hideous.

How should I have handled that? She’s lost her screen time for a week and no more play dates for the foreseeable. When she calmed down she said she didn’t know why she got so angry and she made Lily a card to say sorry (unprompted).

I don’t know how that could have been avoided? I made sure she had a snack after school before going to Lily’s so she wasn’t hungry. Other kids just don’t behave like that.

How can I make sure that never happens again?

Coming down with a virus? Hungry? Tired? Constipated? Overcome with the whole thing? Hyped up ( sadly) what was a fairly run of the mill event previously.

Sounds like emotional dysregulation . No need to pathologise every tantrum.

She's been naughty, you need to discipline - don't worry about it. Make this an incident she remembers - is my advice that it doesn't happen again. Remind her every time she goes anywhere, talk about how she embarrassed herself, upset Lily, big girls don't behave like that etc. Please, please don't do this OP. How would you feel if you had messed up in a meeting and every time you were about to go into another meeting, your boss reminded you of how you had humiliated

The point is, a 5 year old isn't an adult and doesn't have an office or a boss. Many people say, 'you wouldn't do this to an adult so why would you do it to a child.'
Well, you wouldn't hold an adult's hand when crossing the road, or send an adult to their room, or remove screens. Children are not adults and need to be disciplined from time to time.

@Longwhiskers14

It sounds to me that she's just a bit too little to have a playdate without you being there. It's a big thing going home to someone's house with a parent you don't properly know and if your DD has a tendency to be emotional then it's a tough ask to expect her to show exemplary behaviour. I would apologise again to the dad and in future only have playdates where you can be there too.

Yep. I have an emotional 5year old and to be honest we haven’t broached play dates like this yet. We do play dates with friends of similar aged children who we know well and I’m there still. I wouldn’t personally to after school (without a parent) until KS2.

I have a child the same age. Please don't punish her for losing control of her emotions. She wasn't deliberately being naughty. She was overwhelmed.

OP
I think overtiredness, hunger, excitement, maybe overstimulation. Maybe a bit of anxiety as it is a new place for her to visit.
She is a bit young for a playdate somewhere new straight after school without you perhaps?
Don't blame yourself. Big hugs

Why do people assume that a child has a 'condition' when they have quite simply been very naughty? Some firm discipline is needed, to ensure that she doesn't behave in that way again

Because this kind of behaviour can be associated with ASD, as well as all the other causes mentioned - tiredness, social anxiety, finding it hard to verbalise stress and emotions, etc, so is worth considering. The OP mentions several strategies she uses to keep her child calm, which could be because she's 'highly strung' but also is the kind of thing that parents of autistic children have to develop.

I have ASD and ADHD, and 2 teenage dcs, one with ASD, one with ADHD. So maybe I read it with that perspective, and thought this child could just be trying to cope in a world that doesn't make sense to her. Of course nobody can diagnose ASD from a MN post. But equally nobody can say that she isn't autistic from the info given, so it seems cruel and unkind to dismiss that possibility and just say she needs punishing.

As others have said, autistic girls aren't easy to identify. They are more likely to cope by masking very effectively, i.e. 'pretending to be normal', but when they're tired/upset/uncomfortable the mask can slip disastrously. I still experience this. I no longer have meltdowns but I do have 'shutdowns' where I need to get away from people/noise/socialising and just can't cope, especially with people I don't know. Why my autistic dc was younger a meltdown could happen with no warning. It's hard for children to identify their warning signs and find a way of coping, especially if they are around people who aren't aware that they might behave like this.

I'd suggest OP reads about autism in women and girls with an open mind to see if it sounds like a possibility. It's a very difficult process to get a diagnosis, so I think we can all feel pretty confident that no 'quite simply very naughty' kids are being incorrectly diagnosed as autistic.

Really sounds like ASD to me. I'm autistic and so are my kids. I know it might be a difficult thought (and as you've found, extremely hard to get decent advice on diagnosis etc) but please do investigate it thoroughly, especially looking at the differences of how autism presents in girls. Even if you have no luck with a diagnosis yet, you can be aware yourself of the challenges she is facing and how to support her. I don't want to be harsh but the longer she remains without support, the longer she will internalise feelings of being different and naughty and incapable of managing situations that other people can cope with.

Well done for being aware OP and for already trying to lessen stresses on her by accommodating her needs.

That's a very measured post leafylife

I'm aware that both my DC and I tick some of the boxes for ASD traits, but also very much don't in other ways (and I do know that it can present in many ways). Professionals have advised me that anxiety can present in a similar way to ASD, and that in my DC case it might not be helpful to pursue a diagnosis, because the traits are relatively mild and having a view of themselves as having a special condition might hinder rather than help - I think that's probably very true for my DD.

Just to offer up the flip side to this @LadySeaThing, I too think I’ve spent my whole life with undiagnosed autism, I have one child diagnosed and one on the waiting list.

A specialist HV told me that autism can actually present as anxiety, especially in girls and worsening in the teen years. It’s the pressure of struggling socially and masking at school and always feeling different from their peers.

This idea of not pursuing a diagnosis because someone’s struggles are “mild” and they can do a pretty good job of passing as NT is so pervasive. But a diagnosis doesn’t have to be a lifelong burden. It’s a path to self-understanding and self-acceptance. Oh, I’m not a rubbish human being, I’m just autistic! If I could get assessed tomorrow I would.

It saddens me that there’s still such negative beliefs around neurodiversity and getting formally diagnosed, that spending a life undiagnosed but struggling is considered better, because you don’t have that dreaded “label”.

Anyway, that’s not a criticism of you personally. You’re probably in the majority as a parent I just think that all autism deserves to be diagnosed, instead of brushing the “mild” cases under the carpet.

I'm afraid you need to buckle up. This isn't going away and isn't getting better. Adhd/autism starts about now.
^^
Is this a joke? Autism/ADHD don't start when a child is 5. They're born with it, and more often than not are showing symptoms before their 1st birthdays. It's a bloody joke that people instantly jump to sn when a child is naughty.
Op if you have any other concerns about your child's behaviour, then of course speak to somebody. However don't assume that because she misbehaved it means there is anything else going on. She was in a new environment, with people she doesn't really know she's bound to behave differently.

Please don’t discipline your dd. She will internalise it as shame as she was incapable of acting any other way at that moment. I also think you put quite a lot of pressure on her by telling her how to act then expecting her to model this correct and for her at least, novel behaviour, in a new environment.

If you feel it is appropriate, you could drop her dad a text apologising for last night. “So sorry about last night. Dd was so excited about the playdate and unfortunately overtired and overwhelmed. I think her nerves got the better of her and it’s probably best now to leave playdates for a while until she’s more settled at school. Gosh I hadn’t realised how affected all the disruption of coronavirus, restarting school and baby ds’s birth has been. I hope Lily was ok after we left.”

All stages are sent to try you. My dd has embarrassed me before. It’s part of life and some children are more spirited than others. Perhaps your dd will turn into a feisty adult. Nothing wrong with that as long as it’s channelled correctly.

"It's a bloody joke that people instantly jump to sn when a child is naughty."

If you read the thread properly you will notice that most of the posters who have suggested that it could potentially be ASD are those with dc with a diagnosis, or have a diagnosis themselves. So credit them with a bit of insight

Oh OP, I do feel for you (and you @Ori32 - definitely reminded me of taking DS1 to a few places!!)

My DTS1 sounds very similar to your DD - I've looked into an ASD diagnosis for him but he's on the borderline, apparently - the HV/ school nurse will just 'keep an eye on him' for now. He can be delightful, calm, thoughtful, kind; but when the red mist descends, there is literally no reasoning with him. Afterwards he understands that he was wrong and is sorry for it but when he's 'in the moment' all I can do is separate him from the situation. I was actually quite glad of lockdown in some ways as he hadn't coped well with a birthday party which happened just beforehand...

Does your DD sleep well? DTS1's sleep is still not great (he's also 5), even when exhausted he takes ages to go to sleep and will often wake himself up much earlier than he needs to. Might not apply to your DD, it's just one thing that the HV flagged up which might contribute to his up and down emotions.

But yes, to agree with many PP... further playdates (when you decide your DD could handle them) could be outside and for a limited time, which also reassures you that you can leave whenever you like if it's getting too much for her. I have turned down many playdates as I knew DTS1 couldn't cope with softplay, for example

The point is, a 5 year old isn't an adult and doesn't have an office or a boss. Many people say, 'you wouldn't do this to an adult so why would you do it to a child.
Well, you wouldn't hold an adult's hand when crossing the road, or send an adult to their room, or remove screens. Children are not adults and need to be disciplined from time to time

Oh for goodness sake! Saying some things are transferable is not saying everything is, I thought that went without saying. But obviously some things are as children are human too and we can use our intelligence and good sense to work out what is transferable and what we can empathise with from our own experience. Both children and adults can feel humiliation and shame and both feel it when we are supported and encouraged. We all respond better to the latter than former.

That was quite extraordinary!!

Obviously Lily's house and parents were all unknown to DD, was this the first time she's ever been on a solo visit without you?

If so one could understand a 5 yr old being very shy/withdrawn or wanting to go home, but the business with the aggression, dress and refusing to leave seem quite abnormal.

I suggest you discuss this with the school ASAP and tell them exactly what happened. DD and Lily's teacher needs to be alert for any repercussions in class or the playground.

Take it from the parent of older/adult children, your DD is still so wee. I am sure I did not leave any of them at play dates until they were older. Add in lock down and the new baby and you can't blame her for it all being a bit much. I would let it go and stick to supervised play dates. They grow and change so quickly at that age, it may all look very different in 6 months to a year.

My youngest could be a real heller - we had some hideous public tantrums that I learned to style out. She is currently training to be a nurse and an absolute delight - although still a hot and fizzy personality, it has to be said!

She's only 5 and was tired and over excited. It happens and I wouldn't punish her for it. Maybe stay with her for half an hour or so next time?

I was just going to mention laughing Sasha. I hate to say it but the picture I have in my head of her just refusing to take the other girls dress off and dad looking on in horror would be an absolutely brilliant part in a sitcom.

But you are mortified. And probably not quite seeing the funny side yet. Perhaps on her 16th birthday you could both remember it together? 😉

Sorry to hear this! I cringed for you! I think lockdown may have affected our young ones harder than we think.
Since going back to school, I've noticed a difference in my girls, it's like one has forgotten how to interact with other children and the other has developed a clinginess that she certainly didn't have before.
I'd chalk it up to experience and give a bit more time to adjust to school/peers again.

She may have just been overtired and over excited. I remember some hideous playdates at that age. I would for now chalk it down to experience. Maybe if she has another you could go too to keep an eye and be ready to whisk her away if needs be...

@BadDucks

Autism starts about now? What a load of bollocks!!! Please don’t advise on something you are clearly quite ignorant about!

Anyway OP I think for a while play dates should be held at your home and be well supervised and short! Keep them structured if needs be and give your dd some control over the activities.

I’m not sure what you could have done differently at pick up she’s already gone over to the dark side and there’s not much reasoning at that point. I would have not tried reasoning just bundled in the car and let her ride out the storm at home

I thought that. Autistic traits show themselves as early as 18 months and certainly before the age of 2.

Why are people scare mongering?

There was two significant tantrums my eldest had around that age. One was in town and she flew off the handle was screaming, lying on the ground kicking and punching it. Scratching at me and punching me when I tried picking her up. People were staring horrified. Second time was not long after, after a swimming lesson. Much the same. Luckily those were the only two times and my next two never done it..I think sometimes it just happens and wanted to let you know you arent alone and one incident may not mean you are necessarily in for more of the same.

It sounds excruciating for you but everyone knows that little ones can kick off.
If I were the dad I’d chalk it down to experience and note that other play dates with your daughter might be better down the park with you there!

One of my DC was unpredictable at this age. We never had a blow up this big but only because I stayed for playdates at this age. For other DC, they were fine to go alone at the same age.
I found that DD always seemed to be about 1-2 years less mature than her friends at that stage.
Six was around the stage when she could be reliably left with trusted friends. I often hosted the first playdates with new friends though for some time. We also kept playdates short.
Some kids just need more time to mature due to immaturity and sensitivity. It doesn't necessarily mean SEN. My own DC doesn't have SEN but had a combination of being smart and immature which is a difficult mix for them.
It's clear your DD frightened herself this time hence the remorse. I don't think she was being naughty.

Sometimes we look so hard into things which are actually just part of the vast array of human behaviours. Look at adult behaviour, it varies wildly. Why do we think child behaviour should or would be different? Or are we saying that unless our children are automatons they must be diagnosed?

Let children be.