Help! I have a gender non-conforming DS, and feel like the rubber is hitting the road.

[WankmasterBastardDeLaShithead]

DS (10) has been "gender non-conforming" since he was a toddler, and able to choose clothes and toys. We've generally just let him get on with it, not making a big deal about it, and letting him know that it's fine to be a boy and wear a dress/play with dolls etc. He's navigated his own way through all sorts of situations with ingenuity, and grim determination .

Anyway as he's getting older we're encountering more and more tricky situations. Toilets have been a sticking point, although we've mostly got round that by encouraging him to use "neutral" loos where possible. The school organised a meeting for us to discuss this, after an incident where he wet himself (after feeling uncomfortable/unwelcome in the boys' loos, but discouraged by me to use the girls' loos). He now uses the neutral loos at school.

Today though, I've come up against two dilemmas to do with sex /gender identity, and I'm just not sure what position to take. Firstly he goes to gymnastics in a mixed class. His teacher spoke up me after the class, referring to him as 'she' and taking about putting him forward to a (sex segregated) competition at some point in the future. I had registered him for the classes as a boy (obviously), but haven't had an explicit conversation about his gender. He does look "girly" (longish hair) so I completely understand why they're mistaken. I didn't correct the teacher in the moment, as it was in public and this is one thing (correcting people on his gender) that DS finds embarrassing. He doesn't mind being called he or she, but he does mind any "fuss" about it.

I then got home to find an email from his school about an initiative aimed at encouraging girls' confidence, and his teacher feels that he would like to do it. Argh. It's well-meaning, and I know comes from an understanding that his friends are nearly all girls, he looks like a girl, and he will feel left out if he isn't included. Obviously I'm very uncomfortable about this, but my heart is also aching for DS, because this will probably be difficult for him.

Basically if there wasn't such weird gender stereotyping in our society, I'm pretty sure DS would be happily rocking out as a girly boy, but because there is, he's being made to feel that to do the things he likes doing, he has to "be" a girl. It's so shit.

Anyway, I just feel so stuck as to how to do the right thing by DS. Any advice?

Who’s putting all this into his head? The mothers

Delorean, have you actually RTFT?

Righto, Delorean

To he honest, I wouldn't blame the teacher for saying 'she'; people don't have a clue what to say these days for fear of somehow offending someone.

I can only imagine that you're having a tough week, and that giving some random on Mumsnet a bit of a kicking is somehow alleviating your anger and stress. Hope things pick up for you

Longines I have yes. There’s dozens of these every week on MN. It’s all attention seeking garbage. The OP’s statement that her son is ‘facing powerful gender messages’ is pretension of the highest order .

OP Just tea here, thanks.

You're right Delorean. No powerful gender messages in our society. No sirree. I basically just love being pretentious, and am currently revelling in my 150-messages-on-mumsnet fame. I can't tell you what a buzz I'm getting from it.

Please do keep fanning the flames though.

My son had long hair until last year when he decided to cut it, he is 12 now. He was often mistaken for a girl, people don't tend to look too closely I suppose. He would just say 'I'm a boy' and that was that. We would laugh about it, we never saw it as a big deal or some kind of battle against stereotypes.
His best friend is a girl, she has short hair and is often mistaken for a boy, again she just says 'I'm a girl', no big deal.

Speak to the school, speak to the gymnastics place and make it very clear that he is a boy and therefore obviously won't be taking in girls things and please don't ask again. Teach your son to speak up for himself, there is no need for him to be using other bathrooms for example, if someone points out his shoes and says why are you wearing those then he should just tell the truth - because he likes them. Skirting around the issue with everyone seems to be just making it worse.

Being mistaken for the opposite sex when you are a kid is not uncommon and not something to be embarrassed about. If you don't firmly correct people though and let things slide then I don't think you can be surprised by other peoples confusion.

But Delorean, the child is being assumed to be a girl (or at least be identifying as a girl) because other people have made assumptions based on his clothes and hair - the fact others are reading his identity through gender stereotypes isn't OP's fault, is it?

Are you saying that you believe that gender stereotypes aren't a problem, or that gender stereotypes don't exist?

This is so woke as to be almost comedic.

If he is a boy, he needs to make clear by either his dress, his actions or his words (or any combination) that he is a boy. If he can’t do any of the above you need to actually parent him and change his dress, how he is addressed etc so people know he is a boy.

If he decided to wear grow ringlets and wear a kippa, would you be surprised if people assumed he was a religious Jew?! If you dress in the garb of another culture, people call it ‘cultural appropriation’ but, for some reason, dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex is regarded as ‘brave’ and ‘ground breaking’.

I think that it is very hard to, on the one hand, say it is ‘only clothes’ and yet, on the other, be unwilling to encourage a child to dress in a way which will make their life easier.

I find it far easier to understand tomboyish girls as a lot of girls’ clothes restrict movement and long hair is hard to look after, so they are choosing practicality.

Longines if this boy doesn’t care whether others think he’s a girl or a boy, it’s just something he’ll have to get to grips with quickly. He’s chosen to be awkward and vague about his gender so has to deal with the consequences.

I still don’t get why teachers who’ve known him throughout primary school can’t remember that he’s actually a boy.

I've had some really helpful replies on this thread. I'm going to revert to correcting people more firmly, and repeatedly if necessary, and will have a chat with DS about how important this is. I'm also going to double check with the school that they're using male pronouns, and I'll explain that there invitation to the girls' initiative is kind but misguided and confusing. As to why ds isn't being more assertive about correcting people, I suspect that he quite likes being mistaken for a girl. And that's hard for me to admit.

OP ignore @Delorean (can see you are doing now!) it’s just nasty nonsense

You sound so caring and sensible to me and I agree the insistence of teachers and other adults etc to push the agenda of him being trans is insane.

He sounds like he is navigating who he is pretty well and this sort of adult affirmation along lines he isn’t asking for is madness

I would in your shoes swiftly and firmly correct the gym teacher and school with an email and follow up in person stating DS is a boy, is who he is and may present very feminine but he is very accepting of being a feminine boy and as such needs to be included in the classes and competitions along the line of his sex class which is his wishes and appropriate.

I’d def be going into school. You sound so educated and sensible on here I’m sure you can get that point across.

Btw am head spinning at at adult continuing to use she/her even after corrected by the child’s parent. wTAF?

I am not suggesting this as advice, but when my brother was a similar age (back in the 1990s) he had incredible blonde ringlets and was always being mistaken for a girl. He got a bit tired of it so once, in a restaurant when a waitress was giving it a big of ‘surely not, with those lovely curls?’ He stood on his chair and dropped his trousers to prove his point
The moral of the story, if there is one, is that this issue sounds like it is less about gender and more about building confidence/resilience generally. Then wherever your DS goes identity-wise he will feel empowered to articulate and act on his choices. And that banter in the boys’ loos does sound like bullying to me, so the school need to be pulled up on that and deal with it properly

Thing is with sport it's competed in biological sex and not gender.

I'd speak to the gym coach and say you're happy for ds to progress within a competitive team but you don't want him to think as a biological male he can compete against biological woman as it's setting him up to fail. Whatever gender stereotype costume he wears to train and compete is irrelevant.

With school I'd ask them why they think he should be on a course for "girls". I think a course for confidence is fine but I don't understand why that type of thing is gender or biological sex specific?

My neighbours dd is gender non conforming. Not officially but I've known her 13 years and has always confirmed to male gender stereotypes and you'd think she was a male if you didn't know her. She also wears clothes from the "men's" section.
But she competes for a woman's football team because biologically she is of female sex.

Quite honestly, if that school is actually trying to trans your son, when he is fine with being a boy, I would consider removing him before this goes any further. If not, then a meeting needs to be had about how you are absolutely supportive of him expressing himself as an effeminate boy, but he has shown no desire to be female and that youd appreciate it if they didnt jump the gun there.
Id remove him though. Speaking as the parent of a very gender non conforming girl who gets mistaken for a boy constantly and is very happy doing an online school.
This isnt the reason we online school, but I definitely like the fact she can be who she is and noones telling her she is something she isnt

OP. You're stepping into a fierce area here.
You might find some useful information and a more supportive ear on the feminism board.

@itsgettingweird where have you been? Biological men are competing in women's sport when they want now.
Doesn't tend to happen so much in the other direction for fairly obvious reasons.

As to why ds isn't being more assertive about correcting people, I suspect that he quite likes being mistaken for a girl. And that's hard for me to admit.

OP, I thought your plan sounded great until you got to this part.

I think this needs to be handled really carefully with school and clubs if this is the case. It's important to make sure that you and DS are absolutely on the same page with regards to how DS wants to be seen by others. There have been several really scary cases in the press where the parent has been accused of not affirming the child's gender identity and it doesn't take much for this stuff to blow out of all proportion in the current climate.

Afaik they don't compete at a competitive level. They may do in school teams etc but I know for higher level they still do testosterone tests for woman who may be intersex.

My ds is a swimmer. Males compete male and females as females regardless of their gender identity.

Dc is 10, so I presume will be going to senior school soon. Life will be tough for him if he doesn’t get more confident before then. Eg, not all schools have unisex toilets. Junior school is a lot more forgiving.

I’m confused.

OP: you say your ds is very laid back about whether people think he’s a boy or a girl, and yet at the same time he is embarrassed about correcting people because it’s too confronting or too private. These two positions don’t sit well together for me.

Surely, if he was truly relaxed about it, and comfortable with who he is, he would also be comfortable telling people who he is?

I agree with another poster - if your ds is going to go through life dressing ambiguously, then he is going to have to get good at speaking up and letting people know what he wants.

He is going to have to make some decisions - what is it he does want? It all sounds as though he isn’t quite as confident in who he is as you think, and so rather than standing up and saying ‘yes, a boy who like my little pony boots and has long hair’ he fishes the issue because it is less embarrassing for him to be thought of as a girl than for him to be a non-conforming boy. That’s not a position of strength or confidence.

I have a non-conforming boy. I know it can be tricky, but if he was to stop using g the boys toilets, and end up setting himself at age 10 because he didn’t feel as though he could go in there, I’d think there was something very wrong and I’d be sorting it out.