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Being parent to the naughty kid

134 replies

theworstwife · 11/10/2019 19:01

My DS is the naughty kid in his new reception class, he’s the only one put on the clouds. In preschool he was the only one with a sticker chart. This week a little girl pointed at him in the queue for class and said that’s the naughty boy - everyone looked at us like we had the plague.

He’s a kind, empathic, fun child but he can’t sit still or stop making noises and he struggles with transitions from one task to another. I am constantly trying to help him but it’s so difficult to get him to listen. I don’t think he has ADHD or anything like that but he just can’t control himself sometimes. He was on the clouds again today (no one else is ever on them) for making silly noises at group time. He was trying to be good so he could go to soft play this weekend. I was so frustrated with him and disappointed that i have probably been more punative than I should have been. I don’t shout or loose control but I have told him how cross and at a loss I am which I now wish I hadn’t.

I find it so hard having the naughty child - I feel everyone assumes it’s our poor parenting but I genuinely don’t think it is. I hate not doing things by the book and myself was a v disciplined and quiet child so I’m finding him so hard. My DH is great with him but it’s me that is dealing with school as I’m on mat leave. I really don’t want him to be labelled the disruptive child that everyone wants to avoid. I don’t know what to do next. I am meeting with his teacher in November so hopefully she can give me a clearer picture of how far outside the norm his behaviour is. I guess we could see an educational psychologist or something privately but I don’t know if that’s OTT. Any other naughty kid parents with advice?

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Streamingbannersofdawn · 12/10/2019 09:35

I'd also be asking what they are doing to support him. There are lots of techniques for helping children sit at circle time. Visual cues, sand timers, adult support, fiddle toys, weighted lap pads...sitting them all on chairs (you'd be amazed what a revelation this one can be). They don't have to suspect or be supporting SN to do any of this stuff.

The cloud and sun idea doesn't work for everyone...some children, SN or not couldn't give a toss.

I work in pre-school and I have one little girl who just doesn't do stickers the other children practically live for them. It's recognising that she just likes you to notice she's done well and say so, that's it. They are all different and you need to try different things.

theworstwife · 12/10/2019 09:36

He’s our swimming at the moment with his Dad whilst I wrangle the baby. I will talk to the teacher on Monday. I guess I was hoping school would be a magic pill (no idea why I was so deluded) - head needs to be forcefully removed from sand.

I do talk to him and try and get him to see things from others perspective - he generally just says ‘sorry mummy’ and looks sad. I will mention that he seems to have been labelled as the naughty one due to the cloud system and ask her opinion on his behaviour and what assessment/help the school can offer.

I dread picking him up which is awful but everyday there’s an issue. He greets me with ‘mummy, I have some good news and some bad news’ the good news is always about dessert and the bad news about what he’s done

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RandomMess · 12/10/2019 09:37

@theworstwife whether or not your DS turns out to have ADHD or ASD it probably is worth getting him assessed and treated for retained reflexes.

If you are in the SE there is a relatively inexpensive practitioner in Windsor and Petersfield.

It is very common that people with ADHD, ASD, dyspraxia, Dyslexia etc have retained reflexes and it is treatable at a young age - doesn't cure their "condition" but massively reduces the impact on them.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

drspouse · 12/10/2019 09:38

OP you should be aware that sensory evaluation is very controversial. I don't believe at all that being affectionate is a "problem" and some of the therapies are very dodgy. Avoiding unpleasant sensations is not a bad thing to aim for though.
My DS has ADHD and is a good sleeper, he was OK in Reception and has deteriorated since then.

theworstwife · 12/10/2019 09:42

He had a sticker chart at preschool - he really didn’t care about it. They also had timers and things - he didn’t really engage with them. The only thing he seems to care about is disappointing me but I can’t be at school and I don’t want to be upset at him all the time when discipline for school stuff should be metered out at school. I want home to be a safe place for him but I struggle to stick to my word when I here from his teacher every day. I will have a look into the retainer reflexes thanks @RandomMess

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theworstwife · 12/10/2019 09:42

Retained sorry

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itsgettingweird · 12/10/2019 09:43

Have you looked at sensory profile stuff? If he's making noises, wanting physical contact and can't sit still he's probably quite sensory seeking. There are plenty of things you can do daily (fun things as opposed to a set programme iyswim?) that may help.

I do get it though. My ds was the naughty one. Not by the kids standards because he was so quiet and withdrawn but by his teachers who just thought by her telling him to behave normally - he would! But when no amount of sad cloud or punishment is working then there is more.

My ds has asd and a neurological genetic condition (neuromuscular) which also means his bodies muscles don't receive the same messages (he has spasticity and the sensory motor issues that go along with that).

drspouse · 12/10/2019 09:44

I'm pretty sure the retained reflex idea is controversial too. Worth looking at some medical journals.

theworstwife · 12/10/2019 09:45

@drspouse he is more affectionate when he’s bothered by something - if he knows we are busy or upset with him which I thought was possibly normal for his age. He will ask for hugs every 30 minutes most days. The teacher told him there were no hugs at school when he asked her for one Sad I know she can’t hug him but he looked so deflated

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lorisparkle · 12/10/2019 09:47

With my ds we went the nhs route. We first saw gp who referred to paediatrician. She was amazing and referred to OT, SALT and advised school to refer to advisory teaching service. School had already referred to EP and we paid for private dyslexia testing. The paediatrician collected all the information from the different professionals and used this to inform her diagnosis. Whilst the process was long the paediatrician did seem to keep it all going. Whilst many of those specific difficulties (adhd, ASD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, etc) are usually seen together the majority have to be diagnosed by a medical professional except dyslexia. So whilst the educational psychologist was useful they can not diagnose ASD, adhd, etc.

Currently we are concerned with ds2. He 'settled into' the naughty label and it seemed to give him an identity in class (not the sporty one or the bright one). School could not see this and whilst they commented on his inability to sit still, his need for constant praise, his chatting in class, his acting before thinking, etc etc they still said there was nothing more going on he just needed more punishments! He has moved schools so we are just looking at it again,

RandomMess · 12/10/2019 09:48

Retained reflex treatment is mainstream in Australia and there was a lot of research carried out on whether it worked.
INNP.org is the main provider in the UK but are ridiculously over priced due to the assessment process which is all based on research standards which is completely unnecessary IMHO!

Still their website is a pointer.

The practitioner I recommended website is accesspotential.net

itsgettingweird · 12/10/2019 09:49

I should add my ds has retained reflexes and although we've not developed them we've found ways to manage them. I've done it all myself.
You're a doctor so I'm sure if I tell you his physical presentation is a cross between MD and CP (currently looking at HSP and has gene variant on right gene) you'll understand why I believe they do affect a child.
We saw a sensory OT who suggested things like heavy work and hanging upside down - but not to let him spin (which he loved!) because it increased his senses too much. He also has oral fluency issues (typical of children with CP) and so chewing gum etc helped to manage that.

itsgettingweird · 12/10/2019 09:50

Yes I used Australian sites too.

drspouse · 12/10/2019 09:53

The school sounds awful! No hugs! I went to DD's harvest service and two of the Y2 were overwhelmed and went to the TA who hugged them.
DS is no longer on sticker/behaviour charts. He does have a diagnosed disability but he was just getting obsessed with them which was the reason.

RandomMess · 12/10/2019 09:55

Sorry for derailing somewhat!

@itsgettingweird the fee in Windsor is probably around £100 per visit these days, you go every 6-8 weeks and are likely to only need a handful of visits. First thing they treat is retained Moro and his decades of experience basically show once you treat that it's like dominoes and the rest treat very quickly/sort themselves out.

You go home from the first appointment with the first step of treatment. INPP are a different kettle of fish.

hairyturkey · 12/10/2019 09:57

@JeanMichelBisquiat is right. Your son is not naughty- and he needs your support or his self esteem will plummet- this will probably result in his behaviour becoming worse. I would like to tear down all those behaviour charts but of course when you've got a class of 30 you sometimes need a bit of help!

Please don't forget that for many children school is starting too early and they are not ready to be sitting still. Ask for support in case there is anything else going on, but he sounds pretty normal to me for this age.

KOKOagainandagain · 12/10/2019 10:05

DS2 was just the same (with an added speech impairment). By year 1 his school raised concerns about not listening, not following instructions, being overly tactile, randomly impulsively doing things that weren't aggressive or dangerous but were socially inappropriate, making noises, singing etc.

His behaviour was far less problematic at home. Teachers are able to control large groups because NT kids have a strong social desire to please and recognise the authority of the teacher. Punishing or trying to shame DS2 did not lead to behaviour modification but it did lead to anxiety as DS2 did not understand why other people were angry or upset or frustrated or did or said mean things (other DC).

Google token reward system - the pay-off is the reward bought with the tokens given for displaying desired behaviour as opposed to being quiet while the teacher is talking because you understand it is expected and want your teacher to like you or don't want to get in trouble.

DS2 was assessed by OT, SALT, EP, audiologist, local community paediatrics and the ASD assessment team at GOSH. He is diagnosed with ASD and meets threshold for ADHD. His speech disorder turned out to mask extremely high cognitive ability (assessed by EP) and so he is what is know as twice exceptional (2e).

theworstwife · 12/10/2019 10:31

It’s seems really daunting especially dealing with the school who seem at present fairly rigid and unhelpful. The TA in his class doesn’t seem v friendly unfortunately

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BlankTimes · 12/10/2019 10:56

@theworstwife Yes, I've heard about some schools refusing to accept a private diagnosis a lot, too.
However, there are diagnoses and diagnoses in the private sector, there are also screening tests which some private firms carry out that some parents believe are diagnoses when in fact they only predict the likelihood of a child having certain condition(s) but they don't actually diagnose the condition(s).

That's why, as I said in my previous post, it's important to choose a team who also work for the NHS, then school and the LA cannot dispute the diagnosis.

e.g. for Gold Standard private diagnosis, the Lorna Wing Centre diagnose privately but as the leaders in their field, their diagnoses are not disputed by schools or local authorities. www.autism.org.uk/services/diagnosis/about.aspx
(They also do a screening test but are quite clear that it's not a diagnosis)

General diagnostic info from NAS www.autism.org.uk/about/diagnosis/children.aspx

SOSSEN can help when the local authority refuses to accept private diagnoses during the EHCP process, do ring them and find out what type of diagnosis a LA can actually refuse before you go down that route.

The whole of the AN/SN/SEN diagnostic and support system is not consistent throughout the country.

The usual route when someone suspects their child isn't just 'the naughty kid' or is significantly different to their peers is to have a meeting with the SENCO - ring the school and ask for one- ask them to observe their child at school and put it in writing, make a list themselves of their child's different behaviours then see their GP with SENCO's letter and their own observations and ask for a referral for an NHS assessment of any AN the child may have.
Simple, what can go wrong with that?

Well... each individual school is staffed with humans who have their own ideas on what AN/SN/SEN really look like and what help they may or may not provide. Many SENCOs are sadly very lacking in their knowledge and understanding of AN/SN/SEN and they will "see nothing" and infer the parent is mistaken/making excuses for a lazy kid/is a helicopter parent or is overbearing/has Munchausens by Proxy or whatever its modern name is now.

Many schools are atrocious in providing any help for pupils that need it. Some punish pupils for displaying behaviour specifically related to their diagnosed AN.

Some schools are absolutely excellent, have staff that understand a broad range of conditions and who will go above and beyond to put interventions into place to support every child that needs it and will work with the parents to obtain extra funding etc.

No-one knows what their child's school will be like until they start the ball rolling. Some parents are helped unconditionally, some are dismissed and their parenting is blamed, some SENCOs and other staff have very fixed ideas on ASD presentation and will tell a parent outright their child could not possibly have ASD because they can make eye contact or any of the many myths about autism, and from that totally wrong observation they refuse to help in the diagnostic process.

Some GPs are wonderful, others are utterly clueless and will refuse to refer a child for assessment because they also have a fixed idea of how a presentation of autism should look, so even with school support, parents have been turned down for GP referral because the child made eye contact or showed empathy.

The whole system for having a child referred for an NHS assessment rests on having a school who sees the difficulties a child is facing and who are willing and able to put interventions into place and who will support the parents. Then parents need a GP who is more clued-up than many to actually put the NHS referral into motion.

Generally in the UK there is currently an 18 month to 2 year wait for an actual diagnosis of a child with a fairly straightforward presentation.

Many children mask and aren't disruptive or academically behind so for them and their very frustrated parents, it can take many years for school and then a GP to actually see there's a problem and make a referral.

@lookingfortreasure it's impossible to say in your neighbour's case. It depends on the child's scores on the tests that were done for their diagnosis and on the clinicians' observations, both privately and on the NHS.
She may be an overbearing hypocrite who is making excuses for her lazy and spoilt son's deficits or she may be the parent of a child who has a very atypical presentation and needs further expert testing to unpick all the complications, whose concerns have been minimised and brushed off by an uncooperative professionals for years. Sadly that also happens.

Diagnostic criteria is skewed towards the male presentation of autism, so girls and boys who present with a female presentation can still be overlooked. Autism is a condition that's lifelong, if someone's autistic, they are autistic, but having a diagnosis certainly helps particularly during the school years.

steppenmum · 12/10/2019 10:56

The school sound rubbish, frankly. Squashing his confidence now will serve no one. A lot of what you say does sound very familiar to my HFA especially the not being believing in fairies etc because it's not "true". Will he have a conversation on a topic he doesn't choose or does he randomly talk at you? None of this in isolation means there's a problem and if he was younger in his year then it might make more sense. Given that he's one of the older one's I'd be more concerned.

I'd start by finding a well regarded developmental paediatrician. Pay for an assessment. It will either put your mind at ease and help you have some confidence in the strategies you're choosing OR it's going to set you down a very different path. A private school would likely let him repeat his reception year if he's just not there behaviourally but you don't outgrow autism you grow into it so that alone without intervention wouldn't be enough. FWIW we left London for the right school for DS. I never thought we would but we have and he's thriving. Like you we only had very selective private schools near us. The schools he's at now is still top 50/60 but inclusive.

Icecreamsoda99 · 12/10/2019 11:01

The TA in his class doesn’t seem v friendly unfortunately
The teacher told him there were no hugs at school when he asked her for one

This is so sad, we do hugs if the child initiates them. Is he happy at school? If not I'd be tempted to look at moving schools to a more caring environment!

Trixieandkatya · 12/10/2019 11:08

Hi @theworstwife you could be describing my 5 year old DS here! Even down to constantly walking around talking to me, he sometimes walks round and round in circles as he's talking Grin

We are not in the UK so he's been in a preschool setting since 2.5, and will start primary next September. We've been really lucky with his school and teachers as they've been so understanding of him, however the very first year he had a teacher who wasn't. From the very first day she pulled me aside to go into how difficult he'd been, not sitting still, running off, didn't want to do painting... bearing in mind he was only 2.5 then!! For the rest of the year it was just constant negativity, every day she was pulling me aside and detailing what he'd done wrong and I felt so deflated. I ended up getting angry with my DS for things that he really couldn't help. He also was never aggressive, just fidgety, active and wanted to do his own thing. He was supposed to have the same teacher for the next year, but myself and DP spoke with the school and said we didn't want that due to all the negativity, and luckily they moved him to the other class.

His teachers after that have been wonderful, they tell me about the problems they're having with him, but they also tell me all the positives - that he's kind to others, he's very bright, he's enthusiastic and the other children love playing with him. They genuinely seem to like him and are committed to helping him with his problems. I frequently meet and talk with his teachers about strategies they're using with him, most of his problems centre around poor concentration and hyperactivity, so they do things like give him a puzzle to do during circle time, so that he's still participating but has something to do with his hands, so he's not fidgeting with the other kids.

It makes me so sad for you and your DS that they're doing this cloud thing, and basically shaming him, when they could be trying ways to help him with the problem behaviours that he obviously tries to, but finds difficult to control. The getting in trouble for hugging for example, my DS also had a problem with wanting to hug all the kids, instead of telling him off we explained to him that while it was nice that he wanted to hug his friends, not everyone likes a hug and he should ask them first. Now he never hugs without asking, (except for me Grin).

I've also found that things like sticker charts and timers don't work with my DS, the novelty wears off very quickly with the stickers and he doesn't care about the timer. Rewards for him have to be more immediate for them to have any impact. He also will not give any effort to things he's not interested in, it's quite the opposite with things that do interest him so I try to weave those things into stuff I want him to do, 'theme' them if you see what I mean.

The thing that we've found helps him most, is to have him constantly busy with little jobs and tasks, he has a lot of energy that needs to be channelled into something or else it just manifests in a lot of hyperactivity and mucking about! Do you involve him in taking care of your baby when he can? I'm asking because I know my DS would love that, as he's always asking me to have another baby so he can look after it!

I should probably mention here that my DS does have suspected ADHD, his dad also has it so even more likely. The school have encouraged us a lot to get him assessed, as having a diagnosis here means access to a lot more specialist help in school, and also if it's not ADHD just having a better picture of what the issues are in order to tackle them effectively. I don't know if it's the same in the UK, but I would say don't think of it as labeling, but more as opening doors for you and your DS.

As for the other mums, fuck 'em! I used to look at other kids behaving calmly and placidly and wish my DS was more like that, I've also sat watching DS after school sports activities and cringing while he runs about like a nutter as all the other kids are calmly doing the activity, imagining what the other mums are thinking... but now I just try think, yes he's a handful but he's also so sweet to his friends and such fun to be around sometimes.

I would try and change classes or schools if it's at all possible, as it doesn't sound like a helpful environment for him to be in. DS has improved a lot in the years since that first negative year,
due to less just being told off and put on timeout, and more patience and explaining to him why he shouldn't do certain things. Wish I lived near you so we could have a play date, we'd be exhausted but they'd have a ball together!Wink

Trixieandkatya · 12/10/2019 11:08

Wow, sorry for the essay! Blush

Trixieandkatya · 12/10/2019 11:11

@Icecreamsoda99 I agree, my DS school teachers also freely give hugs when the child iniates, or when they're upset.

theworstwife · 12/10/2019 11:17

When he told me there were no hugs it almost made me cry. I assumed that was standard practice that they weren’t allowed but it seems not. His teacher seems v clinical, there are 3 other reception classes I guess he could move to a different one but I have no idea if they are any better. When I ask him how school was he says ‘good’ and that’s it. He doesn’t seem sad, despite the telling off and being labelled as naughty he is a v confident boy - he has a lot of belief in himself

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