RISK you take with your children

[mylittleimps]

Xenia said: "Anything can be discussed. Start a risk thread. Namby pamby look after children all the time parents who don't let them go out alone, run in forests, ride horses and risk death damage their children hugely. ", she also said that the case of Madeleine McCann would not change her in as much she would still leave a similar age child alone and go out to dinner in similar circumstances. Xenia also said it was just the same as putting them to bed and going down stairs to have dinner.

i let my young children ride horses, play outside witha river at the bottom of the garden or at their grandparents with a lake. they have lived in a "construction site" since birth, i let them sleep on their fronts BUT i would never ever leave them alone and go out to dinnerb or even leave my rpoperty boundary. and it is not the same putting them to bed and going down stairs.

i believe now the McCanns have pubilically stated that the quilt will never leave them and the poor child is still missing this is a debate that should be had now as if some people can still say it's acceptable is worrying (to me) and I believe children are still at risk if this message is left unchecked

so where fdo you draw the line at risks wrt your children (we all know that as parents we have to take them)

What is namby pamby, though? For example, I co-sleep, carry DD in a sling and Im a SAHM (so namby pamby in a way). But I also believe risk-taking is essential for children (and adults) mental health, so Id encourage horse-riding/gym/ice-skating, climbing frames, trees and lots and lots of unsupervised free time. But I dont think these risks are in the same category as leaving your child sleeping while you go out to dinner. Thats a different kind of risk, kind of like not insisting that your kids wear seat belts.
I must admit I was suprised to hear that the child had been left alone in the appartment while the parents went out to dinner. I wouldnt have done it, but then there are things that I have done that I know I shouldnt have. Like if Im in the backseat of the car on a long drive and DD is screaming blue-murder, once or twice I have taken her out of her car-seat to cuddle her and calm her down rather than leave her in there to cry. (But then Im living in a country where children are often seen standing up in the car, sometimes in the front seat. Pretty shocking.)

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rookiemum - i let my young children do no end of stuff that other parents raise their eyebrows at but i wouldn't leave them as you describe (in another property to that of the babysitter with babymonitor) I this as i want to make it clear that i too love (totally adore) my DH and we have fun (in, mainly these days, don't see the need to go out as much these days,) and feel our lives are fullfilled.

Sakara - apart from the bit about aking dd out of car seat on long journey i agree with you. for me that isn't a risk worth taking as you just don't know what idiots are on the road and my dcs are the most precious cargo possible and for me stopping the car to calm down ds was the option.

just an example of whose personal grief isn't always seen as enough and the press and courts do jump on parents when a risk they take goes wrong:

a local woman was jailed when she did 80mph down a road which she had done so 100 times before, this time however she came off the road and killed her dd and her dd's best friend. was that risk right to take, should she have known better? that guilt will never leave her but she was made an example of by the press and the courts. no-one agreed with her risk no one spoke out in her favour(even though most people will have taken a risk with speed),

so that's why i raised this thread when Xenia said she would do the same again wrt leaving sleeping SMALL/YOUNG children alone and go out for dinner. I really think when a child has been missing for all this time (and when children can go missing when they are not left) attitudes need to change wrt this sort of risk as everyone now knows the consequences.

everyone knows speed kills, everyone know knows what risk young children are at when they are left alone, and not just from being taken (but fire etc etc)

I also think by stating what you do / not do, and suggesting attitudes need to change you're not being judgemental on a thread like this, it's just discussing and letting others know what the general opinion is out there.

"I really think when a child has been missing for all this time (and when children can go missing when they are not left) attitudes need to change wrt this sort of risk as everyone now knows the consequences."

But the problem is in this instance a) we're still not sure exactly what happened (even as to whether there really was a break-in, or whether the child wandered off); and even if the parents were asleep in the next room it is not clear that the situation could have been prevented. Certainly the McCann's in their interview with the BBC indicated that they couldn't have been certain that they could have prevented their daughter's disappearance.

If anything the publicity has confirmed that this is actually a very rare event - more children drown on holiday than disappear. So when I am deciding whether it is safe to leave my sleeping children, abduction may factor into my decision, but only as a very remote possibility.

exactly, there are far more likely things that can put your child at risk from harm when left alone sleeping so why take the HUGE risk in the first place when there are so many things that could happen abduction aside?

ok i'm going to ask it, when so many other risks are frowned upon why is it acceptable to leave sleeping children alone or at least not be acceptable to frown upon it or question the reasoning behind it?

once again i am not passing judgement just am intrigued and bewildered by the concept of leaving very young children alone

Because I don't see any "huge" risks. The risk of abduction is incredibly low. I would have to gauge the relative risk of fire in each location, but in a hotel room away from the kitchen, then I am happy if I have a working smoke alarm. The risk of SIDS is ever present, but we always opt for non-smoking rooms and follow the usual guidelines (and again our presence does nothing to prevent this).

The main risk imo is what might happen if the children wake up. Firstly we know our children well, and they are both sound sleepers. If they are ill for example we take a different view of the risk of leaving them. Secondly we always prepare them for what we are going to be doing so they know where we are, and also that there will be someone listening out for them. They know how to get hold of us in an emergency. Thirdly, we mitigate the risks of them hurting themselves in their room (so they can't wander out on balconies, there is nothing that can give off heat etc).

There are a host of other things that we consider, but would be too long to list - the location of the hotel, the type of clientele in the hotel etc. We wouldn't necessarily make the same decision each time. And when our second child was still small and in a cot we would always have a babysitter as we didn't feel it would be fair for the baby to wake his older toddler brother and for his brother to have to deal with that.

If I felt that concerned about the risk of abduction, then frankly I wouldn't go on holiday to that location in the first place.

The above summarises my views, but I wouldn't expect every parent to have the same view. Some children are sleepwalkers, some are generally poorly, some would be devastated and traumatised if they woke and foudn their parents not there. All those factors would be considered by the parents and they may make different views.

We're talking about having dinner in the hotel dining room here - not taking a taxi across town.

"ok i'm going to ask it, when so many other risks are frowned upon why is it acceptable to leave sleeping children alone or at least not be acceptable to frown upon it or question the reasoning behind it? "

Well I tried my best to give you my reasoning for it. I don't actually see it as something I would necessarily judge someone on, as I suspect a lot of decision is down to where you are at the time and what the location is like etc. As I have already stated on this thread, I looked at the resort that the McCann's stayed at and decided that it wasn't suitable for us as the restaurant was too far from the rooms and there was no listening service (and I'm not keen on a night creche). But if I am in a suitable hotel and resort and wanted to have dinner then yes, I would leave my children if I was happy with my own assessment of the risks.

mli, I think the risks of leaving children asleep and alone are as LM describes, varied and individual and are one of those risk assessment situations that are really down to the individual parent and that they will make according to the habits and temperament of their individual child. Whether it is dangerous or not depends on the situation.

The situation of the woman who killed 2 children was v. different. It was unambiguously dangerous. Unlike someone who leaves their child alone asleep, for a start she was breaking the law. There was also no question whatsoever that unlike someone who leaves a child sleeping, she was putting herself and her two passengers into an entirely predictable danger; road accidents which end in death, unlike child abduction, are very, very common. It is infinitely safer to leave your child alone asleep, than it is to drive down a country road with them at 80. Added to that the the fact that she was reckless and irresponsible with the lives of everyone else who happened to be using the road that day as well as her own dd and the dd's friend, I think that's why sympathy for her was in very short supply. She must feel terrible guilt and anguish about it, she has killed her own daughter and for that you have to pity her. But it's not in the same league as taking a normal borderline risk imo.

I think there is a difference of they are out of earshot; not the same as being upstars/downsatiars

ok i'm going to ask it, when so many other risks are frowned upon why is it acceptable to leave sleeping children alone or at least not be acceptable to frown upon it or question the reasoning behind it?

littleimps, on this parenting site you're not allowed to ask that question, you get shot down and told you have no sympathy with the parents

trust me.

Ok this is the thing I don't understand, and honestly I genuinely just don't so I am very willing to listen to a reasonable explanation.

If my neighbour babysits in my house then I guess just about everybody except a hard core few are ok with that, but are the risks exponentially increased by her sitting in her own house which is visible and opposite mine, on a cul de sac not a road, with a high powered baby monitor which picks up every murmur, our front doors locked with her having a key, oh and the house takes less than 60 seconds to reach ?

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Why do people keep harping on about how there are other, simpler things that put your children at risk - like driving them in a car? It's irrelevant - you can't really avoid taking them with you in the car can you, but leaving them in a locked room at the ages of 2 and 3 while you go out for dinner is quite another matter.

Taking a child out of a car seat in a moving car isn't a risk I'd take either. Wouldn't it be better to pull over?

As others have said, if a risk to very young children is avoidable, then it should not be taken. It is our job as parents to protect them against ALL preventable risks when they are too young to do so themselves. You cannot say " well that probably wont happen so I will risk it" when your childs wellbeing is at stake. If there is any risk that is unnecessary, especially if it is for your own convenience you simply do not do it.

or an unlocked room

I agree with you there tiggiewinkle

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Again, it is for us to make sure the car seat is fitted correctly. Leaving a child alone in a hotel room, or house for that matter, will always be unacceptable to me because the risk is an unnecessary one.

consider myself a namby pamby parent, but consciously try to not be a paranoid one.

no fireguard on open fire. ds (3) knows the fire is dangerous and hurts and you don't go near it.

often leave him alone downstairs when upstairs putting laundry out etc.

have always stood back and let him climb precariously on climbing frames in playground.....he has been doing this from 20 months and i've had heart in throat but have stood back and let him. he is not fearful and has never taken something on that he couldn't do.

let him ride his two wheeler (no stabilisers) on pavement several yards in front of me.

don't think for a second mccanns were to blame. the people that took their child are.

think the OPs posts on the subject have been suspect to say the least.

frank ferudi 'paranoid parenting' is very good.

Leaving older children who understand what is going on is one thing but I wouldnt leave 3 children on their own when the oldest is only 3 years old, especially if they were in a different country and were sleeping in different surroundings.

I used to take dd into the petrol station with me when I had to pay but now I have 2 children (3yrs and 8mths) I find it is easier to leave them in the car. The door is locked and I can see them from the petrol station window.

toomuchtodo, you can ask any question you want

You won't get shot down, but you find that the answers you get are well-argued and disagree with your opinion. Sorry if that offends you.

I don't get this getting in a car is unavoidable. Really? You could go on the bus or the train, which is much safer.

But that would be uncomfortable and inconvenient wouldn't it, and we all put our own convenience and comfort above the safety of our children whenever we strap them into the car and in many other daily situations. And who is going to say that's selfish and unreasonable? You would think anyone who did was a loon (and rightly so imo).

But the concept of a risk being "necessary" or "unnecessary" is also entirely subjective. Is having a knife in the house a "necessary" risk? Should you be using a car at all? Should you ever go on holiday especially to an establishment which you don't control - surely you are taking "unnecessary" risks just by travelling.

You are now judging whether the reason for taking a risk is sufficiently "worthy" or not. Is it OK to leave your children in a hotel room to check at reception as to why the power has gone off say?

You simply can't eliminate all risks - at best you can choose which risks to take. And in some decisions there is a clear decision to b made - do I put my kitchen knife out of reach or not. Others are more subjective - is a night out with my partner worth leaving my children with a baby listening service? You will give a different answer depending on the state of your relationship and whether this is a rare treat of a daily event.

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I appreciate every comment on this thread -

to me parenting, i thought, meant the needs of the child especially the very young should be first and foremost in every decision and parenthood was a privilage and not a right. it appears my take on parenthood is not with the majority on MN and this is interesting -

when i had my ds's and embarked on motherhood my needs came last, so dinners out could wait as could certain types of holidays. I feel fullfilled as a person and am happy with my life. My DH and I love each other very much but whether or not our relationship is solid would not change my thoughts on not leaving my ds's alone in a strange place (or at home!)

again i'm interested not judgemental.

although, i pray in light of a little girl missing for so very long that the law will change and it will be crystal clear that to leave a young child/ren alone does constitute neglect (and not be based on social class) because i always thought it did (I don't mean in another room or in the garden, but in the car whilst you shop for 1/2hour or in an holiday appartment whilst you go out for dinner). I say this because if you had gone out and booked a babysitter to look after your sleeping children and then saw that babysitter coming back from a local shop whilst you were out would you be happy? (or at nursery all the staff outside of the room having a chat not concentrating on the children)

i doubt it, you'd say she had neglected her responsibilities and that's why for most people a few pounds off the night out budget for a babysitter is worth every penny so you can do that "forget" about your sleeping children just for a while knowing they are safe and there is someone there should they wake.

no doubt for some or even the majority on MN i'm way off the mark on this too but that's me i spend money on the children first and me second, not sorry that's just me.