Shouted at and punished my 3y/o and feel so guilty.

[QueenAmongstMen]

I think I just need to get this off my chest and hopefully get support and reassurance off other parents who have experienced this guilt.

I have a 3.5 year old son who although had his challenging moments is in lots of other ways a fantastic child and I love him to pieces.

I also have a 9 week old baby and my 3y/o has had to come to terms with a lot of adjustments since the baby came along. Me and DH expected a deterioration in DS's behaviour and agreed that we'd pick our battles with him and perhaps be a bit more lenient with him to accommodate his reaction to the baby arriving. In general that's worked well, he gushes over the baby, shows no jealousy towards him at all but me and DH are having to deal with some difficult attention seeking behaviour.

Today our 3y/o has been pushing our buttons and deliberately and repeatedly doing things we've asked him not to over and over again. This includes things like jumping on the sofa, throwing the baby's playmat around, trying to climb into the baby's bouncy chair and many other behaviours. I hate the way he looks at us when he does these things because it's like he's goading us. I know it's all part of him wanting our attention since the baby arrives but it's just so hard to manage sometimes.

It all came to a head this evening when after all day of him misbehaving he screamed when his dinner was put in from of him, refused to eat it (he's had it plenty of times before), went hysterical, started shouting, kept getting up from the table and trying to run off and as a result of him persistently being silly he ultimately knocked his plate off the table which ended up face down on our new carpet. He stopped in his tracks then because he knew things had gone too far. My DH told him that he wasn't getting anything else to eat and sent him to his room to calm down.

I was then in the living room cleaning up DS's toys and the baby was on the play mat in the corner of the room. DS suddenly ran into the room like a little whirlwind and went over to the playmat and completely unexpectedly started hitting the baby on his stomach which then led to the baby crying. I couldn't believe what I was seeing as DS had never shown any worrying behaviours towards the baby and I just lost it.

I put DS on the naughty step and told him that he must never EVER hit his baby brother and that I was extremely angry at him. I used a tone of voice with him that I've never used before but after him being disobedient all day and then hitting the baby I just couldn't take anymore. He messed around on his naughty step, shouting out, blowing raspberries and just generally trying to get a reaction out of us.

By this point me and DH were drained and told him that he'd behaved so badly all day that he was going to bed early.

Prior to putting him into bed I told him again how disappointed I was that he'd hit his baby behaviour and even more upset because he hadn't apologised for it.

Tonight DS was put to bed by DH (I usually do it) without having had any tea and no bedtime stories and songs which is what I normally do with him.

There's no way I could have done our normal bedtime routine though because I couldn't have him thanking that his awful behaviour during the day was being excused or that him hitting the baby didn't have consequences. I felt angry towards him.

Anyhow, I've just gone into his room and thought how angelic he looks when he's asleep. I tucked him in and kissed his head and the guilt just started creeping up on me.

His behaviour has never been as bad as it was today, usually he has a few little moments during the day but is otherwise well behaved. Today he was just so deliberately naughty almost from the moment he woke up and me and DH hit the point of feeling like he should be punished. I really hate that word.

I'm sorry this post is so long, I just needed to get it off my chest. I have told DH that I feel guilty about how the day ended but he said I shouldn't as DS's behaviour had been awful all day and that hitting the baby just cannot be condoned.

Has anyone else had days and feelings like this?

Also, fwiw, in that kind of scenario I would have explained that it's okay to be frustrated/angry etc but it's not okay to throw things and now you need to pick them up - but mummy will help you because there are a lot of things. And then had a stand off making sure that at least one thing was left for my child to put back!

BUT you have a newborn baby and anything goes at that stage! Including showing up with porridge in your hair, kids in pjs (because they wouldn't get dressed) and dragging them out screaming when they misbehave. Cut yourself some slack. I remember the few times I made it to playgroups at that stage, I sat there praying no one would talk to me because I was so tired I couldn't think straight. You have a NINE WEEK OLD BABY! Sorry, the caps are because that's so young and I found the move from one to two was more stressful in lots of ways than none to one.

OP, first and most importantly, you sound like you are a great mother and he is a lovely little boy who is going through a hard time. It will pass and you will barely remember it!

A couple of things I noticed- --
Children never have an answer when you ask them why they did something unreasonable. They are incapable of saying: "I am feeling stressed and jealous about my little brother, wish things were back to the way they used to be, and I am having one of those awkward growth spurts..." Most adults are incapable of explaining their unreasonable behaviour, even to themselves, so don't be surprised if a child is unable to do this. If you have a flash of insight, it can be helpful to suggest reasons for their behaviour to a child, but you have to be very careful not to feed ideas which might not be true or might be overly simplistic into their heads.

To your son, reminding him about a possible reward for good behaviour might come off as a challenge: "Can I bend your will to mine?" Some kids respond quite well to rewards (bribes), others see them as a red cloak to a bull, and to those children following their own impulses is far more important than a crappy hamburger and a milkshake! (I am not being judgemental about bribes; we are all muddling along here, and whatever works is fine within reason.)

Don't feel bad or ashamed about his behaviour at playgroup. If you want to go, don't stop!! As long as you deal with his behaviour, no one will be judging you (or if they do, that is their own big problem). In fact, see his tantrum as a way to let the other parents feel good about themselves and their kids; they are all thinking: "Thank God, for once it's not my kid". You have provided a valuable public service!

Good luck, and remember that my first point is the really crucial one!

You said he comforted you in your post on 21/10 ‘By this point I was in tears because I was exhausted after two bad nights with the baby and tonight he'd been screaming again for well over an hour. DS could see I was upset and wrapped his arms around me and told me not to cry and then told me I was his best friend’
You’re saying you see that he’s behaving like this because of the new arrival but then you’re also expecting him not to behave badly or act up. He doesn’t have the skills to know why he’s behaving badly, never mind the skills to communicate it!

Thanks samewitches - I didn't realise the poster was referring to my original post when I spoke about being comforted, I thought she was talking in relation to another post I had made.

I do expect him to play up following the arrival of the baby but a line has to be drawn somewhere and in my eyes that line is when he deliberately hurts people, for example when he hit the baby and when he threw a toy at and injured that child in pre-school yesterday. I was so, so mortified when that happened. I experienced feelings of anger, resignation, shame, frustration, despair and disappointment all wrapped up on one. All I could think about was that other boy's parents and how they will feel when they are told about it. If another child had deliberately thrown something at my DS and caused him to bleed I would be furious!

To a previous poster who asked if my attention had been on the baby when he threw everything at the playgroup: just before I had gone to get my cup of tea I had been breast feeding the baby so I suppose my DS will have seen me doing that.

Regarding the incident at pre-school yesterday, I was talking to the staff about DS and he didn't know I was there as he was playing over the other side of the room. I was watching him playing with three other boys and they were all playing nicely at he chalk board and drawing etc and so I called over to him. He looked up, smiled and shouted out "mummy!!!!" He then, for no reason, bent down, picked up a car and threw it hard at one of the other boys. It was deliberate and he wanted me to see him doing it because until he realised I was there he had been playing lovely with them. It was just awful.

You’re expecting thought processes way too sophisticated for a child of his age. He’s angry. He’s feeling rejected and he’s trying to get your attention. And it’s working isn’t it? I know it’s negative attention but it’s still attention.

So you think what he did at pre-school should be ignored and not acknowledged just so I'm not giving him attention?

I think 3 is such a big change in behaviour. DS definitely challenged my ideas about gentle parenting at that age.

What I did was started to bring in a removal of privileges. This was for anything I felt I couldn't handle with logical consequences/prevention, so mainly shouting/name calling and any violence. Only remove stuff which is extraneous. If you have things like a bedtime story or a family dinner which you value, don't remove those things as punishment.

We used to do a debrief of the day at bedtime, that's when I went over what I thought had gone well and talked about things which didn't go well. It helped because he was calmer and removed from the situation and I don't think it was too negative because we talked about it in productive terms like how we can do better tomorrow.

What also helps is identifying the main particular behaviour issues to yourself (say one per year of age, until about 6) - so what are the three biggest problems - and then work out what's the opposite, or reasonable age-appropriate alternative of that and try really hard to encourage, model, catch and praise that whenever you see it.

I don't think asking them why really helps because they won't be able to give you the underlying reason anyway.

Thanks Bettie - at the end of the day yesterday we spoke again about the incident and he told me that when he say [boy's name] today he'd give him a hug. I then ended the conversation on praising him on two things he'd done that evening, even though they were little things, I said he'd done really well in helping us bath DS and he'd done really well using his manners.

I made sure I did his bedtime story last night too even though it left DH with an upset baby for 10 minutes. I wanted to end the day with just having some quiet time together and to have some time with the calm version of DS. He's such a lovely, funny, clever little boy, he's a joy to be around 90% of the time and he makes me laugh so much. I just need to remember all that during the other 10% of the time when he's testing me.

If another child had deliberately thrown something at my DS and caused him to bleed I would be furious!

I absolutely wouldn’t - and never have been. My DSs have come home from nursery several times with damage inflicted by other children and my reaction has always been, ‘Oh well.’ What happens at nursery is nursery’s problem, not yours. Don’t re-hash it with your DS later - it just puts attention back onto unwanted behaviour.

You need to LOWER your expectations - of yourself and your DS, and of children his age in general.

He is not on the slippery slope to becoming a sociopath. He is going through a difficult transition. Respond consistently and with love to everything and the rest will sort itself out.

I absolutely wouldn’t - and never have been. My DSs have come home from nursery several times with damage inflicted by other children and my reaction has always been, ‘Oh well.’

It's funny you say that actually because when DS went to a Nursery he came back home on about three occasions in two weeks with nasty bites on him from another child. DH was really angry about it whereas I was pretty calm over it all. I told DH to just let it go because it could as easily be our DS biting someone.

The mother of the child doing the biting was really apologetic to me and clearly embarrassed but I just kept reassuring her that it was fine and it's just a phase some children go through.

Now that it is actually my child being the one to cause harm I can't be so calm though and I understand why the biter's mom was so apologetic. I feel absolutely horrified and guilty that my son is now getting the reputation as the disruptive child, the one who is rude to the staff, the one who doesn't listen and the one who hurts other children. No parent wants their child to be that child.

I think that's why I got so upset. I can't bear to think of my son being the "naughty kid" that nobody likes and being the child that the staff dread being there

OP i'd like to recommend the book Calm Parents, Peaceful Kids by Dr Lisa Markham to you. SHe also has a great website, Ahaparenting.com

but her book is well written, full of useful info (she's a child phychologist and has lots of great info about developmentally what children are able to process) as well as detail plans for how to handle 'bad' behaviour.

She also has a book specificlaly on sibling relationships I'm going to get now I', pg with number 2.

She's a bit of a perfectionist (e.g. quite strong on no screen time, ever, for young children).

Which i don't adhere to, although i do agree limits are needed: we go cold turkey on screens from time to time and if behaviour is deterioating at home, it is often, once I've reflected, becuase we've got busy and stressed and are letting / agreeing / fobbing DC1 off with two much screen time, rather than the positive engagement all children need).

She's also, i think, very good at pointing out that as parents we need to control and manage our own emotions, and not take them out on our children. So you might be mortified by your son's behaviour, but you need to process that and let it go, not use it as the basis for how you approach whatever he's done.

I don't remember her talking about it, but I'm a big believer in also modelling making amends. So if i feel regret about a reaction I've had to DC1 (becuase we can all over react / mis judge it / loose it sometimes) then i make sure I talk to DC1 about it afterwards, and apologise. I make it clear I'm not condoning whatever their behaviour was, if it was bad, but i also make it clear my errors. So that i got upset and angry and that I'm sorry for shouting or whatever it was i did.

Young children aren't able to do this, but i hope that I'm modelling the best way to deal with what to do to make it right when their emotions get the better of them, which they will follow as they grow up.

My nursery never lets on which child is inflicting the damage - they never even give away the gender, so you can’t guess or hold a grudge against any particular child or have an awkward confrontation with another parent. I’m a bit surprised your nursery doesn’t do the same, TBH. Hopefully the workers at your DS’s nursery will be very clued-up to the fact that his new behaviour is almost entirely related to having a new sibling and will be managing it accordingly, and not holding it against him but, more to the point, you. My nursery were brilliant with my DS1 during his hell-child phase after DS2’s arrival - loads of cuddles, role plays with teddies and dolls, lots of drawing and getting him to make things for himself and the baby. Maybe you could discuss it with them specifically, if you haven’t done so already?

Thank you for your advice goodmuck and I shall purchase that book. I need to do something because I'm so worried we aren't dealing with his behaviour properly and I don't want to make things worse.

elphababa - the only reason I knew who the biter was at his previous nursery was because it was the Manager's own child. I imagine she wouldn't have disclosed anything to me if it were someone else's child who had done it.

Sorry I posted and ran this morning. What I meant was that, while obviously the attention isn’t positive, it’s focused on him. He’s exerting control over his life in the only way he can - by being a bit of a git.

And I know that he probably seems a huge hulking thing next to your tiny newborn but he really is still a baby himself. Try and remember that. And also that this is just a phase, honestly. He will get through it and you will look back on this very soon as the blip it is.

Second the recommendation for Laura Markham - she’s great. Have a look at her website while you’re waiting for the book to arrive. The other book I have found really helpful is How to Talk so Kids listen and listen so kids talk. It’s a really useful book about communicating positively with children of all ages.

And please go back to toddler group. Anyone who judges you is a twat

Thanks jiggly. My DH picked DS up from pre-school today and they said his behaviour had been much better.

He's been really lovely at home tonight too, really funny and sweet and we haven't had any issues. He was interacting nicely with DS2 and then sat with me for a while doing a puzzle before helping me get DS2 ready for bed.

He's like a Jekyll and Hyde.

I think you're right that compared to the baby he seems huge and I think that's causing to forget that he is still a baby too. I can hold my hands up to that. I know I need to find a way to lower and manage my expectations of him and not react to him negatively and I'm hoping this thread and the books that have been recommended can help with that.

I have spoken some more to my husband about it tonight about how we need to change our approach because the strict approach we're using, especially him, is going to make things worse, not better.

I don't think he understands the logic of that as he equates being told off as learning what a person is it isn't allowed to do but I reiterated again to him that the brain of a 3 year old is very different to the brains of the teenagers he teaches.

I think when my books arrive and we can have some time to look at them together he will realise why what we're currently doing is not the answer.

DH has got to go out tomorrow morning and initially DS was going to be spending the morning with my FIL (DH's idea, thinking it would be a nice break for me) but I've cancelled that now because as stressful as it may potentially be, I just want to spend some time with DS. I said that if anything I would prefer it if FIL came found here to either watch the baby or take the baby for a walk so I can have some uninterrupted time with DS.

My mom has asked again today about having DS sleep over on Saturday night and I don't know what to say. Behaviour aside, I worry that if I let him stay with her he's going to think we're packing him off whilst we're at home with the baby and reinforcing the idea that we love the baby more than him (in his eyes). On the other hand he loves going to nannies so he may perceive it to be a treat. I just don't know.

I feel like at the moment t I have no idea what to do about anything.

Can you ask him what he wants to do? My first reaction is that now is not the time to pack him off, but then giving him control over his own ‘destiny’ at this point is also important. Big up staying with you (‘I would LOVE you to stay with mummy, but if you want to go to nanny’s that’s fine too’ etc)

Also (now that bed time is over ) an exercise to help you and your husband understand the thinking of a three year old versus a teenager:

Put some pasta into a non-see-through pencil box in sight of your DS. The box must be clearly labelled with pencils as if that was the contents of the box. Bring in a teddy. As your DS what teddy thinks is in the box. Your DS will answer ‘pasta’, because that is what he saw going into the box and, crucially, he is incapable of seeing things from another’s point of view. This is why statements such as ‘he’s trying to manipulate you’ or similar make absolutely no sense. Trying to affect how you think and feel with his actions are simply not within his developmental capabilities at this point in time. His behaviours are entirely self-serving - he needs attention to confirm he’s still loved. As a PP has said upthread, he has discovered that being a little git gets him the most instant attention. If you exclude/punish him for this, he will ramp up the git behaviours as that’s what gets the quickest response. Support him through rage, articulate his thoughts for him, explain why git behaviours are not the way forward then reassure with oodles of love, he gets what he needs while also sorting out what he needs to do to be ‘good’ - which all children, unless they really are hard-wired sociopaths, genuinely want.

Honestly you’re a really good parent because you’re trying so hard to make this better. Trust that.

And I think asking him about your sleepover is an excellent idea. I’m a big fan of giving children choices because it gives them the illusion they’re in control eg would you like cucumber or tomatoes? They feel like they have the power but actually you do. The key is to only give them an either/or choice. Total win/win.

And if your DS says he’d rather stay home with mummy, then there’s no shame at all in telling your mum that. And if she’s a decent parent, she’ll totally understand

OP - that book I recommended is the only one DH has ever read!

which is lucky, becuase it's a good one. unlikely lots of parenting books that are padded with personal stories, hers is much more routed in evdience, which men seem to like.

It's also well organised, so it's easy to navigate and doesn't require a full read to get it all.

One thing i do know is sending him off to granparents or whoever when you've only recently had a baby is very likely to come over to him as him being replaced, and that hurts, and it will come out in his behaviour. Him chosing to go to grandma's might be different, although i'd still be concerned about what might be said to him however well intentioned (e.g. Mummy is so busy with the new baby she needs a break).

Converting the offers of help into getting them to watch the baby to the extent it's feasible, so you can have some one on one time with DS is a much better idea.

Imagine if your husband came home with a new wife. Then said to you from time to time 'would you go out with your friend tomorrow night, so i can spend some time with the new wife?' or, if you went out with the friend and they said 'yes, your DH is so busy with the new wife at the moment, isn't he'

It would really hurt, wouldn't it? And as i understand it, short term that is pretty much how it feels for the older sibling a lot of the time. Like they've been replaced and they're not good enough.

Think as much one to one time as you can manage focused on him, doing what he wants to do is going to really help a lot.

Elphaba great post!

I agree to ask him. My DS sees staying with GPs as a treat so doesn't feel he is being packed off so I don't think (though he is a bit clingy when he comes back) and a night with just a baby feels like a breeze haha.

Maybe ask him and if he does want to go then frame it like "ooh nanny loves having you to stay, she loves playing with you" etc so it's all about how positive it is? Xx

Thanks everyone for your continued advice and posts.

I spoke to DS this morning about sleeping over at Nanny's house but he said he wants to stay here with me and his "baby brother". He loves staying at my mom's house though so I'm pretty sure at some point in the afternoon he will ask if all 3 of us can sleep at Nanny's house

I'm trying to stay calmer this morning. After about half an hour of desperately trying to get the baby to sleep DS1 saunters over and starts kissing him all over his head which obviously wakes him. I counted to 5 before reacting and explained that the kisses had disturbed DS2 and he said that he only did it because he loves him and wanted to kiss him goodnight.

I mean, how can you be frustrated after that response?

Queen my toddler does the exact same thing. As soon as he sees the baby is dropping off he either kisses him or starts being extra noisy. It angers me quicker than anything else he does. But if I get cross he gets worse, and I can see it makes him sad... so I seethe in silence which makes me feel shit. And he can probably tell I'm angry anyway. And the baby then seems less relaxed because I'm tense - when I force myself to relax my breathing my baby settles more too.

Now I try and just keep telling myself it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things and this part will be over soon. I know he's only doing it because I'm paying attention to the baby but it's still beyond fucking irritating

Especially because he doesn't realise if he let me get the baby to sleep we could then spend some time together just us! He's too little to understand when I try and explain this.

Especially because he doesn't realise if he let me get the baby to sleep we could then spend some time together just us! He's too little to understand when I try and explain this.

I explain the same thing all the time too, I say if he lets me get the baby to sleep it means I can go and play with him in his bedroom and we can have the time just playing together but he doesn't seem to grasp that either and he's 3.5 years old.

I bribed him with the iPad this morning to keep him quiet and it meant I managed to get the baby back off to sleep and he slept for an hour. In that time I played dinosaur games with DS and made Halloween cards with him so the iPad bribery, although not ideal parenting, was worth it in the end!!

It's pretty close to ideal in my eyes. He got his time with you, which plenty of people don't even see the value of let alone try and fit in. You've got to do what you've go to do - and it's better than getting angry.
How people have more than two kids with a small age gap is beyond me. They are better people than me haha! This is a tough stage.

I totally didn't bribe my toddler with McDonald's fish fingers just now because that would be 100 times worse