Shouted at and punished my 3y/o and feel so guilty.

[QueenAmongstMen]

I think I just need to get this off my chest and hopefully get support and reassurance off other parents who have experienced this guilt.

I have a 3.5 year old son who although had his challenging moments is in lots of other ways a fantastic child and I love him to pieces.

I also have a 9 week old baby and my 3y/o has had to come to terms with a lot of adjustments since the baby came along. Me and DH expected a deterioration in DS's behaviour and agreed that we'd pick our battles with him and perhaps be a bit more lenient with him to accommodate his reaction to the baby arriving. In general that's worked well, he gushes over the baby, shows no jealousy towards him at all but me and DH are having to deal with some difficult attention seeking behaviour.

Today our 3y/o has been pushing our buttons and deliberately and repeatedly doing things we've asked him not to over and over again. This includes things like jumping on the sofa, throwing the baby's playmat around, trying to climb into the baby's bouncy chair and many other behaviours. I hate the way he looks at us when he does these things because it's like he's goading us. I know it's all part of him wanting our attention since the baby arrives but it's just so hard to manage sometimes.

It all came to a head this evening when after all day of him misbehaving he screamed when his dinner was put in from of him, refused to eat it (he's had it plenty of times before), went hysterical, started shouting, kept getting up from the table and trying to run off and as a result of him persistently being silly he ultimately knocked his plate off the table which ended up face down on our new carpet. He stopped in his tracks then because he knew things had gone too far. My DH told him that he wasn't getting anything else to eat and sent him to his room to calm down.

I was then in the living room cleaning up DS's toys and the baby was on the play mat in the corner of the room. DS suddenly ran into the room like a little whirlwind and went over to the playmat and completely unexpectedly started hitting the baby on his stomach which then led to the baby crying. I couldn't believe what I was seeing as DS had never shown any worrying behaviours towards the baby and I just lost it.

I put DS on the naughty step and told him that he must never EVER hit his baby brother and that I was extremely angry at him. I used a tone of voice with him that I've never used before but after him being disobedient all day and then hitting the baby I just couldn't take anymore. He messed around on his naughty step, shouting out, blowing raspberries and just generally trying to get a reaction out of us.

By this point me and DH were drained and told him that he'd behaved so badly all day that he was going to bed early.

Prior to putting him into bed I told him again how disappointed I was that he'd hit his baby behaviour and even more upset because he hadn't apologised for it.

Tonight DS was put to bed by DH (I usually do it) without having had any tea and no bedtime stories and songs which is what I normally do with him.

There's no way I could have done our normal bedtime routine though because I couldn't have him thanking that his awful behaviour during the day was being excused or that him hitting the baby didn't have consequences. I felt angry towards him.

Anyhow, I've just gone into his room and thought how angelic he looks when he's asleep. I tucked him in and kissed his head and the guilt just started creeping up on me.

His behaviour has never been as bad as it was today, usually he has a few little moments during the day but is otherwise well behaved. Today he was just so deliberately naughty almost from the moment he woke up and me and DH hit the point of feeling like he should be punished. I really hate that word.

I'm sorry this post is so long, I just needed to get it off my chest. I have told DH that I feel guilty about how the day ended but he said I shouldn't as DS's behaviour had been awful all day and that hitting the baby just cannot be condoned.

Has anyone else had days and feelings like this?

Queen you come across as a wonderful, loving and caring Mum. You’re going to do just fine

Thank you both. It's just hard because you want to do the best for your children but sometimes we don't know what that is. There's no such thing as a perfect parent, I may have judged this situation poorly but it doesn't make me a bad mum. I imagine each and every one of us has said or done something rash in frustration in relation to our children but that's just human nature isn't it.

OP I think you did fine - but one day you will look at 3 year olds in the street and think oh wow he was just a baby himself when the next one came along.

I went through this with my two - I really didn't see how young my eldest still was.

he is 3 - it's completely normal behaviour - all of it. Of course some days are worse than others - of course hw will lash out at his sibling when he gets told off - he knows you don't tell the baby off! he sees how things have changed, that he is now the naughty one under lots of pressure, expected to follow rules, do what he is told, get put on the naughty step etc - of course he blames the baby!

I would not personally drop bedtime as a punishment at that age but you did okay! its tough!

Honestly I would try to notch it all down a peg and expect some days like this - its so normal

I cringe now looking back remembering shouting at my then 2 year old when I was at a playgroup with him and my newborn - but I felt so exhausted and stressed and overwhelmed - he is fine now ! he doesnt remember it anyway, its natural ot get a bit more tense when you hve a tiny baby to deal with.

I also do think 3 year olds need to be told what is and what isn't acceptable - otherwise how will the learn?

By modelling.

I don't hit people. DD has never seen me or DH hit anyone. Ergo she doesn't hit. If she did we'd explain that it wasn't something that is okay to do and that if she did it we'd have to leave the park/couldn't have ice cream etc. Natural consequence.

By modelling. I don't hit people. DD has never seen me or DH hit anyone. Ergo she doesn't hit.

I can assure that me and DH don't go round hitting people. Our DS still hits though.

I get the impression titty that you really don't approve of my parenting choices as you keep reappearing and making comments that in some way or another criticise what I said or did or how I parent my son.

I have acknowledged plenty of times that what happened the other night wasn't ideal and I have said I feel guilty about it, but I can't change it. I'm not the perfect parent that you seem to be and you trying to make me feel worse about what happened serves no purpose except to upset me.

I accept that in your eyes I did something awful and you think I have no empathy or understanding etc but I can't take back what happened.

I accept that in your eyes I did something awful and you think I have no empathy or understanding etc but I can't take back what happened.

You are not the one lacking in empathy

Thank you mom

I'm trying to help you.

I haven't read the whole thread so may be repeating other people's comments but I have a boisterous 3.5 year old and a 10 week old so I really can empathise.
I totally recognise the behaviour you're describing - naughtiness plus giggling/looking for a reaction. Mine used to sometimes hit me just to get a reaction. (NB It was definitely different to when he was lashing out because of a strong emotion eg his toy had broken and he got upset and threw it) It's completely infuriating and v hard to stay calm. I think my 3.5 year old definitely needs clear consequences (plus lots of love and affection and modelling obviously).

I don't find naughty step works anymore as it means he gets lots of attention trying to keep him on it. I have had one or two really bad moments where he was just hitting me and hitting me and giggling and I ended up shutting him in the porch once (only briefly). I felt awful and obviously it's not ideal but it worked because he was in a very boring space and didn't have my attention.
What worked better for me (mostly - we still have our moments!) was planning in advance clear consequences for bad behaviour so that in the heat of the moment I didn't have to make any decisions about what to do, I just followed the plan I'd already made if that makes sense. It really helped me to stay calm because I knew I had a plan. I used to give him a warning then take his favourite toys away but he has so many toys that didn't really work that well.
So now I cut down tv time instead: I give a clear warning and then either count to 3 for him to stop doing something or saying if he does x again he loses tv time. It has meant that I have to consistently turn the tv on at the same time each day if he's behaved though which can be annoying. He watches tv quite late in the day but if he's naughty after tv time I do the same with his bedtime story, though I do my best to give him lots of chances to avoid losing the story. I have felt awful the few times I have had to take away his story so I know what you mean.
If he's doing something where there's a clear consequence associated with it then I use that instead eg if we're at an activity where we could go home I give him a warning and count to 3 - I only do this if it would be practically possible to leave though as I feel I can only be convincing enough if I know I could definitely follow through with it.
Sorry that's been a bit long and rambling...
Please don't beat yourself up, it's not easy dealing with two of them especially if you are sleep deprived and he's not going to starve by missing one meal.
I was thinking what I would do in the same situation (hitting baby) and I think ideally I would focus lots of attention on the baby (exaggerated checking if they're ok, cuddles etc) and ignore toddler rather than focusing on him? Esp if you think he was looking to get a reaction from you. Then once I'd spent time focusing on baby give him the option to say sorry, give baby a gentle cuddle, and then a clear warning about consequences if he does it again. But I can really understand where you were coming from when you'd been dealing with it all day - I'm so glad mine is at preschool for a good chunk of the week...

I don't hit people. DD has never seen me or DH hit anyone. Ergo she doesn't hit.

Nope, sorry Titty. You just don’t have a hitter - it has nothing to do with your modelling in this case (and, while we obviously agree on certain approaches, you are implying that the OP hits, which is a touch rude). DS2 is an utter thug sometimes and it’s perplexing as we obviously don’t hit people. It’s a natural reaction in pre/semi-verbal children which is more common in some than in others. If you haven’t experienced this, you’re not really in a place to advise, I’m afraid. Natural consequences as you describe would not work with my DS when he’s in a lather - he wouldn’t hear you, for starters.

We still don’t naughty-step/exclude though. We put a barrier between him and us/object/person he’s hitting, so he can still clearly see we’re with him and acknowledging him, but not allow him to continue hitting and to get whatever it is that’s set him off out of his system. Once he’s calm we explain why we don’t hit, demonstrate how you’re supposed to use hands (stroking faces, hair, clapping, waving, cuddling). He gets a big cuddle. We move on. He is definitely getting better now he’s getting more words. It was a bit like WWF there for a while...😳

Archers - a lot of the parenting techniques you use sound very familiar to mine. We also have a counting system where if we ask him to do something and he doesn't do it then we slowly count up to 5 and he knows he has to do it before we reach 5. Thankfully he always does it because me and DH would have no idea what we'd do if we ever reached 5

I do give pre-warnings to DS about what consequences will follow if he does x, y or z because like you say it makes it easier to act if they misbehave.

The other day I praised him for behaving so well and I told him that if he was good at [friend's name] and played nicely with her children then I would rage him to McDonalds a treat. We also discussed what 'being good' entailed and it primarily meant listening to me and doing as I ask.

After half an hour or so he did something wrong and so I told calmly not to do it again but he immediately went to do it again. Both I and my friend told him to stop but he ignored us. I walked over to him and asked him if he remembered what we'd talked about in the car about what it meant to be good and what we had planned to do if he behaved. He told me yes and talked about going to McDonalds but as soon as I turned my back he then went on to do the naughty behaviour again. I didn't get angry with him and just told him that because he'd chosen to do that again then it meant we weren't going to McDonalds. On the way home he told me he wanted to go to McDonakds but I followed through and said because he hadn't listened to me it meant we weren't going there. He obviously whined and complained for a few minutes but he then accepted it.

I do think pre-warning about consequences is a good move and then how they decide to act upon that information is up to them.

Elphaba - I'm glad it wasn't just me who felt it was insinuated that me or DH are violent in some way and that's why DS hit the baby.

I like the method you describe about how you handle hitting and kicking etc and I will use it if we have any future occurrences.

I don't hit people. DD has never seen me or DH hit anyone. Ergo she doesn't hit.

Cobblers.

DH and I don’t bite people. DS (almost three) does bit his sister on occasion.

You’re doing good OP. Moving from one to two is tricky for everyone. But it gets better.

His behaviour has been awful again the last few days. I actually cried when I picked him up from pre-school and yet again I didn't get good feedback when I asked how he'd been.

I'm just so tired with it all

It seems like you’re expecting an awful lot from him! He’s 3, his world has been turned upside down by the arrival of a new sibling, his dad’s coming down on him like a ton of bricks and he’s seeing you crying and comforting you (he’s not going to know why you’re upset)!
Get him out and about and worn out, half your battle sounds like boredom.
Get consistent with your dh, if it’s ok for ds to be putting bricks on the baby’s head etc one minute when he’s with you it isn’t fair for him to then be sent away by DH for being too rough the next minute. Poor kid.
Parenting is hard, bringing new siblings into the mix is hard and it’s stressful for sure but YOU made those choices, your ds didn’t!

A) where did I say he comforted me?

B) He's not bored. He's at pre-school three days a week and on the other days we go out. As I've already explained, on the day I spoke about in my original post, we didn't go out on that particular day because the baby was unwell.

Today at pre-school, when I went to pick him up he deliberately threw a car at another child who obviously then cried and was left with a small cut on his shoulder. DS came running over to me and was basically laughing about it and refused to apologise. His key worker came over to speak to him about the incident and he just kept shouting at her and blowing raspberries in her face. I don't think I'm "expecting too much" because I expect him to behave better than that.

I dread picking him up from pre-school these days because the conversation with the staff always starts with, "He's not had a good day today...." and my heart just sinks.

Since we came home it's more shouting from him, yelling "No" at us whenever we ask him do anything, repeatedly carrying out behaviours we've asked him not to etc. It's just draining.

I kind he's just reacting to the baby but this behaviour is so unlike him and that's why I find it so upsetting. It's just not him. He's always been such a gentle boy so for him to purposely throw something at another child, make him bleed and then laugh about it just really upset me.

My mom asked if he could stay at her house either Friday or Saturday night and I had to make up excuses because there's no way I could let him go there with his behaviour being so bad. My mom just wouldn't be able to cope with it.

Haven’t read whole threadbbut wanted to add my thoughts. I have a three year gap between my two boys (they are now 6 and 3) and remember so well how upset I was the first time DS1 hurt DS2. He loved him dearly and he was always very affectionate towards him but sometimes completely out of the blue would hit him or push him over once he started walking. It is so normal for an older sibling to lash out at a baby sibling, and I knew this but I used to take it really personally and would get so angry at DS1.

They are now really good friends and play well most of the time but they argue about everything and take great pride in winding each other up and scoring points of one another. All par for the course.

This too shall pass and your boys will become proper brothers and allies in time. You sound like a lovely mummy, I have felt that guilt you describe so many times but like you say we are only human and sometimes we are pushed too far. We are now moving into the threenager phase with DS2 who has always been so compliant but is now showing some challenging behaviour. You are not alone. X

We went to a play group on Wednesday which we always go to because it's a huge building and lots of other children to play with and lots of toys etc but his behaviour was bad enough that we had to leave early.

I had gone to get myself a cup of tra from the tea making facilities which are in the same room and so I had
my back turned to him for about two minutes. As I turned to go back to my seat a member of staff came up to me and asked me if I could get DS to pick up everything he'd thrown. When I looked over I could see he'd emptied all the lego boxes, all the duplo boxes and the box of cars and had thrown everything all over the floor. I went over to him and
said he needed to help me pick them up and he just stamped his feet, screamed "No" in my face and ran off. It was mortifying. As I was picking everything up a few other parents came to help because otherwise it would have taken forever and also I think they felt a bit bad for me. After we'd finally collected it all up and put it back where it belonged DS ran back over to it, made sure I was looking and then proceeded to start throwing it again. That's when I took him home. We've been going to that play group for almost three years and now I don't think I can face going back there next week.

Thank you nutgirl - obviously I hate to think of anyone getting upset and stressed with bad behaviour but it does feel better to know I'm not alone and that I'm not some kind of evil mother.

The bad days with him are far outweighing the good ones and it's just taking its toll.

JigglyTuff i dont think it was a case of the child being left to starve.. getting seng to be without supper was a common punishment whsn i was grwing up it didnt ment u got sent to bed on an empty tummy. you got ur dinner then put to ur room. not allowed to join in the fun winddown bedtime routine with mum.and the other kids. IT NEVER DID ME ANY HARM.

absolutly no idea why that last sentence was all capitls....i didnt mean to shout lol x

Did you ask him why he'd thrown the toys? Did you empathise that he'd felt a big emotion he couldn't describe with words?

Yes I asked him why he did it and he simply said "Because I did."

That's what he says whenever I ask him why he did something. Or sometimes he will say "Because I wanted to".

Oh you poor thing, I really do empathise. How is his sleeping and eating? Looking back, ds was the most biddable two year old ever (dh and I even used to observe our friends same aged dc and think we had it cracked - oh how we got our comeuppance!) but when he turned three it was like a switch had been flipped and he was a nightmare! But, he also gained a sibling at 2yrs 7mo. Possibly not a coincidence...

It does sound like your ds is really struggling to accept the change in his life. Does he like drawing? Or could you play act some scenarios with his favourite teddies? For example: ds teddy being angry and throwing things (you be this one) and mummy teddy (ds) reacting...how? It might be interesting to see what he comes out with. Incidentally, did ds perceive you to be busy with the baby when at playgroup? He might view it as his thing with you which the baby has now overtaken?

I also empathise with the frustration of hearing "because I did". Ds only ever answers "I don't know" to those kind of questions but dd says "because I wanted to"!

This too shall pass...