Shouted at and punished my 3y/o and feel so guilty.

[QueenAmongstMen]

I think I just need to get this off my chest and hopefully get support and reassurance off other parents who have experienced this guilt.

I have a 3.5 year old son who although had his challenging moments is in lots of other ways a fantastic child and I love him to pieces.

I also have a 9 week old baby and my 3y/o has had to come to terms with a lot of adjustments since the baby came along. Me and DH expected a deterioration in DS's behaviour and agreed that we'd pick our battles with him and perhaps be a bit more lenient with him to accommodate his reaction to the baby arriving. In general that's worked well, he gushes over the baby, shows no jealousy towards him at all but me and DH are having to deal with some difficult attention seeking behaviour.

Today our 3y/o has been pushing our buttons and deliberately and repeatedly doing things we've asked him not to over and over again. This includes things like jumping on the sofa, throwing the baby's playmat around, trying to climb into the baby's bouncy chair and many other behaviours. I hate the way he looks at us when he does these things because it's like he's goading us. I know it's all part of him wanting our attention since the baby arrives but it's just so hard to manage sometimes.

It all came to a head this evening when after all day of him misbehaving he screamed when his dinner was put in from of him, refused to eat it (he's had it plenty of times before), went hysterical, started shouting, kept getting up from the table and trying to run off and as a result of him persistently being silly he ultimately knocked his plate off the table which ended up face down on our new carpet. He stopped in his tracks then because he knew things had gone too far. My DH told him that he wasn't getting anything else to eat and sent him to his room to calm down.

I was then in the living room cleaning up DS's toys and the baby was on the play mat in the corner of the room. DS suddenly ran into the room like a little whirlwind and went over to the playmat and completely unexpectedly started hitting the baby on his stomach which then led to the baby crying. I couldn't believe what I was seeing as DS had never shown any worrying behaviours towards the baby and I just lost it.

I put DS on the naughty step and told him that he must never EVER hit his baby brother and that I was extremely angry at him. I used a tone of voice with him that I've never used before but after him being disobedient all day and then hitting the baby I just couldn't take anymore. He messed around on his naughty step, shouting out, blowing raspberries and just generally trying to get a reaction out of us.

By this point me and DH were drained and told him that he'd behaved so badly all day that he was going to bed early.

Prior to putting him into bed I told him again how disappointed I was that he'd hit his baby behaviour and even more upset because he hadn't apologised for it.

Tonight DS was put to bed by DH (I usually do it) without having had any tea and no bedtime stories and songs which is what I normally do with him.

There's no way I could have done our normal bedtime routine though because I couldn't have him thanking that his awful behaviour during the day was being excused or that him hitting the baby didn't have consequences. I felt angry towards him.

Anyhow, I've just gone into his room and thought how angelic he looks when he's asleep. I tucked him in and kissed his head and the guilt just started creeping up on me.

His behaviour has never been as bad as it was today, usually he has a few little moments during the day but is otherwise well behaved. Today he was just so deliberately naughty almost from the moment he woke up and me and DH hit the point of feeling like he should be punished. I really hate that word.

I'm sorry this post is so long, I just needed to get it off my chest. I have told DH that I feel guilty about how the day ended but he said I shouldn't as DS's behaviour had been awful all day and that hitting the baby just cannot be condoned.

Has anyone else had days and feelings like this?

Prior to lunch I had an hour of time with DS where I shut us both in his bedroom so he was my only focus and we played all his favourite games and it was lovely. He was so well behaved and amusing and we had a really nice time. After lunch we went out, me, DS and the baby and again we had a really nice time, he probably only played up once in about three hours but it certainly wasn't anything dramatic, just normal 3 year old behaviour.

He's supposed to be going out with DH tomorrow to an activity they do every week but he's told me he doesn't want to go as he wants to stay home with me and [baby's name]. I don't really know whether I should let him stay home or whether we continue with his and DH's quality time as that's important too.

In general his behaviour has been drastically better, a huge improvement on yesterday so things have cooled down. Me and DH have agreed tonight that we'll sit down tonight and discuss how we will tackle his behaviours with a united front and I will tell DH what things he says and does towards DS that I think exacerbates the problem.

For example, if DS wants to cuddle the baby he admittedly is quite rough but I just tell him to be gentle and then distract him with something else. However, if the same situation occurs when DH has got the baby he will say "Stop it [DS's name], you're too rough with him, go away and leave him alone."

On a few occasions I've even heard DH tell DS to go into his bedroom because he's too been too rough (in his eyes) with the baby and I'm really not comfortable with that.

Good on you Queen it must be hard to carve that time out. What is the activity he is supposed to do tomorrow if you don't mind me asking? I was thinking if it's an exercise type thing that'll probably be good so he can expend some energy - also if he goes it keeps his routine as normal as possible. Also he'll still be getting 1 to 1 time. But it's lovely that he asked to stay home. Maybe play it by ear tomorrow? You sound like a lovely caring mum

I’ve been through this exact same thing OP with my two DC. DD 3.5 when DS born. Around 2 months into it her behaviour really started to deteriorate, very similar to what you describe. Real goading moments doing things she knows not to and trying to get a reaction from me. It was so hard. Things are much much better now 6 months in. She adores her little brother, but still can still be unpleasant as siblings are but this is usually at the end of the day when she’s tired. I think it’s an age thing as well, being 3 is hard work for them and us, then chuck in a new sibling where they are now competing for your attention, it’s a shit storm really. Things that worked? Someone previously mentioned the book ‘how to talk so kids will listen’. I used some of the strategies which made me feel less negative and shouty, it definitely created a more pleasant atmosphere and they actually work, most of the time. However for really poor behaviour like hitting, we felt a firm consistent consequence was needed, such as taking away her favourite toy or her tv time that day. Always given a warning that this would be the case if she continued poor behaviour. Also, sleep deprivation makes everything so so much harder to deal with, it’s horrible. But this does get better too. Good luck. You sound fab and things will improve. It’s lovely seeing them interact with each other now.

Thanks everyone.

The activity they do every week is go and watch a Sports game and they have been doing it for well over a year.

I really wanted to do DS's bath time and bedtime tonight but due to baby being a nightmare I couldn't. About thirty minutes after DH put DS to bed he was still awake so I handed the screaming baby over to DH and I went to see DS. By this point I was in tears because I was exhausted after two bad nights with the baby and tonight he'd been screaming again for well over an hour. DS could see I was upset and wrapped his arms around me and told me not to cry and then told me I was his best friend. He then shuffled over and told me he would share his bed so I could stay with him so he could cuddle me.

I stayed with him for a short while but then had to return to screaming baby who is still screaming. He's seriously over tired and he just can't switch off. God my head hurts

Oh OP - your little boy sounds v sweet. I hope the baby settles and you feel better soon.

This makes really uncomfortable reading OP. I can appreciate you had reached your limited but your son is three, he went to bed without food? That’s not ok.

I found the baby + toddler stage sooo hard compared to other stages. You are a good mum. That is obvious. I felt guilty sometimes but mine turned out pretty well i think and they've been good company for each other. (Now 10 and 13.) Could you take your ds out for a special mum and ds treat time for a couple of hours. (Leave expressed milk if bfing.) Just to buy him a toy and have some cake in a cafe or something

I found when i started taking dd out for mum and dd time it improved her behaviour.

Quite frequently I take him out for an hour or do once I've fed the baby and we just go for a walk around our estate to hunt out cats (he loves doing this) and then we pop to the park and on the way back home we go into the local newsagents to buy him snake sweets that few loves.

I would like to spend more one-on-one time with him but he always wants the baby to come with us. If I suggest us doing something he says "Can [babys name] come too?" If I say that I just want it to be him and mommy he pouts and just keeps telling me wants his "baby brother" to come too.

graceflorrick - I've already said that I feel guilty about what happened and that in hindsight I would have done things different, and I also said that I can't go back in time and change it. It's happened now, I feel awful about it and so you really don't need to try and make me feel worse than I do already.

I can so emphathise! I have a 3.5 yo DD and 9 wo DD!

I'd say the acting up was worst 4-8 weeks (hitting out at us a lot, total regression in doing anything for herself, and suspiciously convenient toilet accidents whenever I was out of the room for five mins) and we've turned a corner this last week.

I can totally see why you acted how you did, it's scary when they hurt the baby. DD bit dd2 on the finger when she was playing nicely around 6 weeks, think case of no impulse control wanting to know what would happen. No judgement, you were pushed to your limit, I'd probably have done condensed bedtime as we cuddle and chat through the day every night but possibly not practical if your ds wasn't receptive.

A funky flamingo sling has been invaluable, allowing me to settle DD for naps in no time while still doing other activities, and I'm learning to prioritise dd1 when dd2 is napping in cot over essential chores/rest for me etc - tough one!

Whenever dd2 is looking at dd1 I point it out, DD asks why and I always say "because she thinks you're amazing, she's watching you do x". She's starting to hold the rattle or pull faces etc for DDnwithout prompting.

With rough handling, I say to be gentle and direct strokes and tickles to body, but if she seems a bit rough, I reserve judgement until the baby protests and say baby's crying she didn't like when you did x. Surprisingly squishing cheeks and moving her arms around etc don't make baby cry, so I let her get on with it.

Also got best friend comments from DD. Started daddy is my best friend and baby is your best friend. Now we're all (me, daddy and baby) her best friends so I take that as a positive!

I also make a big deal of the times that the baby looks at DS and smiles at him. I tell him that the baby is smiling at him because he loves his big brother and when the baby grasps DS's fingers in his fists I tell DS that that's the baby's way of saying that he loves you.

The relationship you describe sounds very similar to the one my DS's have. DS always wants to be near the baby and if baby is doing Tummy Time then my DS will lie face
down on the floor next to him so they can do it together. It's really sweet.

I bought a sling a few weeks ago to see if me being hands-free would help as I'd be able to do more with
DS but unfortunately the baby hates it and does nothing but scream when he's in it

Ooh, read up on tummy time - Janet Lansbury has written some stuff about it not being great for babies.

You honestly sound like you are doing a good job

Queen At the risk of being a cliché, I don’t think you have a new baby/threenager problem, I think you have a DH problem. You’ve said DS is much worse when DH is around, and you’ve eluded to DH being quite stroppy with him. I think your discussion with DH needs to be quite firm - your DS quite obviously doesn’t respond to the harsh parenting your DH favours. He’s responding much better to you and your calmer approach, DH needs to get on board with that, or you’ll have much more serious issues a year or two down the line.

That said, we all lose our cool, you’re not a terrible parent. Your DS isn’t the first to go to bed without dinner and he won’t be the last - he obviously wasn’t all that hungry or he wouldn’t have slept through, and he would have eaten the dinner you offered! You’re doing brilliantly with two very small children, go easy on yourself.

In terms of our approach towards DS I work in a caring professional I'm generally quite patient and calm in difficult situations so am able to transfer this across to my parenting whereas DH is a secondary school teacher in a school with pretty badly behaved pupils so it's in his nature to be authorative and strict. I have told him he can't respond to our 3 year old in the same way he responds to a defiant 15 year old but by default he still comes down hard on what he perceives to be bad behaviour.

On many occasions I have intervened when I think he's being too harsh on DS and when we speak about later I tell him how his actions and words come across to a 3 year old and reiterate that he must treat DS with the same level of love that he shows towards the baby.

DH and DS have a fantastic relationship usually and I don't think he realises how hurt DS may be, even if he doesn't show it, by the things DH does or says in relation to DS and the baby. Obviously DH loves both boys equally but I don't think that comes across at times purely because he's said or done something and hasn't thought about how DS may interpret it through the eyes of a 3 year old.

Thanks for that titty - I shall have a read of her works.

What kind of sling did you buy? Can you borrow a different one from a sling library in case ds2 likes it more. Don’t give up after a few goes with the one you bought. Sometimes they will suddenly click and decide they like it.

As for the behaviour stuff. I went through similar with DS1 shortly after DT2/3 were born. I went for the “praise the good” and unless it’s horrifically bad “ignore the bad” to start with.

Praise every little (and I mean little) thing he does that you would want to encourage. And unless it’s dire, ignore the suboptimal stuff. If he gets attention from good stuff and not from bad stuff then it takes the shine off doing the bad stuff.

If you think he’s entering a situation he’s about to struggle with, try to make your expectations very clear going into the situation. Preemptively praise him for the behaviours that you’d like him to do. And then follow it up with oodles of praise when he does them. So “it’s your little brother’s bath and story time now. I’d like you to play quietly in your room. I’ve left out some books for you and you can use your marble run. I know you can be excellent at tidying so whilst I’m doing the bath please put your duplo away.”

It is so hard. But everyone is adjusting.

Oh, and one other thing I saw in a post - you said DS1 chooses ds2s outfit every day. I’d reduce that down a bit as if it goes on too long you’ll end up in a tricky situation when ds2 is old enough to have an opinion. (Voice of bitter experience!)

Appreciate the thread has moved on and you've got some great advice but I totally understand the toast as reward thing. Dc2 is exactly the same, thinks that's a reward meal and most other meals are a sort of quasi punishment. Same with fruit.

DH is a secondary school teacher in a school with pretty badly behaved pupils so it's in his nature to be authorative and strict. I have told him he can't respond to our 3 year old in the same way he responds to a defiant 15 year old
Yes he needs to work on this. I've got a couple of friends who are secondary school teachers in similar comps and one i think is really good at adapting how she is outside school to younger kids and adults, to the point i can't actually imagine her being strict with older kids and one of them i think is not as good at this. He really could do with a parenting course in how to deal with small children or at least reading up on it and acting on it. Whether he'd want to do that i don't know

My dc just turned 3 and I'm expecting a baby at Christmas. This post has been really interesting to read. OP you sound like you're doing just right and i can see myself in a similar situation in the future.

We're having a really lovely morning so far. DS is playing nicely with the baby and he does what he's told if I ask him to let go of his arms or stop pulling his ears etc.

He's been playing with his Duplo and Stickle Bricks this morning and has been making little towers and balancing them on the baby's head which I let him do as I was there with him and then putting duplo towers on the baby's legs too but my attitude is that if he's not hurting the baby then there's no real harm in letting him do those things if either me or DH are there too. DS was having fun and giggling, the baby was smiling and DS told me how much he loved playing with his baby brother.

Things definitely seem a lot calmer and DS is happy and well behaved again.

I'm going to write off what happened the other day as just a crazy day where all of us (DS included) lost the plot a little.

I think you need to stop attributing and worrying about his behaviour being related to the new baby. It all sounds completely normal whether there's a new baby or not. When we've had new babies arrive the only thing I've tried to do is not treat the older or older ones any differently because of the baby. That includes excusing bad behaviour because they are 'adjusting'. By doing this we've never had to wonder if we're being too strict or too lenient about anything or making excuses for anything. And to be honest all the kids seem to have just adjusted to their new sibling with good grace within a week or so.

Kids are very flexible to new situations and not as delicate as people think in my opinion. Sometimes I wonder if we make it harder for them to adjust by being too sensitive about something they are actually fine about.

So OP, I'd stop worrying about the impact of the new baby and acting based on that and just approach Discipline and love with DS as you always would have.

Another vote for lovebombing. 'Naughty steps and isolating him from you and affection will only make his feelings worse. I have noticed that my dd's behaviour is worse when there is another adult there dad, grandma etc because she goes from having my, or their, undivided attention to feeling left out and annoyed when the grown ups talk to each other and stop playing with her.

Ive always believed it's perfectly reasonable to understand someone's behaviour. To know why they behave that way. Behaviour after all is a form of communication.

But on the flip side you have to be very careful not to understand TJ the point you excuse.

The question is ask yourself is "do I want ds to think violence and screaming is the way to show emotion and get what he wants?"

You sound a perfectly good parent so I'm guessing the answer is no!
Therefore you've realised what behaviour is for - you're addressing how to approach that whilst also teaching ds even if he's jealous of his little sibling punching him in the stomach is not and NEVER will be an acceptable way to show it.