Shouted at and punished my 3y/o and feel so guilty.

[QueenAmongstMen]

I think I just need to get this off my chest and hopefully get support and reassurance off other parents who have experienced this guilt.

I have a 3.5 year old son who although had his challenging moments is in lots of other ways a fantastic child and I love him to pieces.

I also have a 9 week old baby and my 3y/o has had to come to terms with a lot of adjustments since the baby came along. Me and DH expected a deterioration in DS's behaviour and agreed that we'd pick our battles with him and perhaps be a bit more lenient with him to accommodate his reaction to the baby arriving. In general that's worked well, he gushes over the baby, shows no jealousy towards him at all but me and DH are having to deal with some difficult attention seeking behaviour.

Today our 3y/o has been pushing our buttons and deliberately and repeatedly doing things we've asked him not to over and over again. This includes things like jumping on the sofa, throwing the baby's playmat around, trying to climb into the baby's bouncy chair and many other behaviours. I hate the way he looks at us when he does these things because it's like he's goading us. I know it's all part of him wanting our attention since the baby arrives but it's just so hard to manage sometimes.

It all came to a head this evening when after all day of him misbehaving he screamed when his dinner was put in from of him, refused to eat it (he's had it plenty of times before), went hysterical, started shouting, kept getting up from the table and trying to run off and as a result of him persistently being silly he ultimately knocked his plate off the table which ended up face down on our new carpet. He stopped in his tracks then because he knew things had gone too far. My DH told him that he wasn't getting anything else to eat and sent him to his room to calm down.

I was then in the living room cleaning up DS's toys and the baby was on the play mat in the corner of the room. DS suddenly ran into the room like a little whirlwind and went over to the playmat and completely unexpectedly started hitting the baby on his stomach which then led to the baby crying. I couldn't believe what I was seeing as DS had never shown any worrying behaviours towards the baby and I just lost it.

I put DS on the naughty step and told him that he must never EVER hit his baby brother and that I was extremely angry at him. I used a tone of voice with him that I've never used before but after him being disobedient all day and then hitting the baby I just couldn't take anymore. He messed around on his naughty step, shouting out, blowing raspberries and just generally trying to get a reaction out of us.

By this point me and DH were drained and told him that he'd behaved so badly all day that he was going to bed early.

Prior to putting him into bed I told him again how disappointed I was that he'd hit his baby behaviour and even more upset because he hadn't apologised for it.

Tonight DS was put to bed by DH (I usually do it) without having had any tea and no bedtime stories and songs which is what I normally do with him.

There's no way I could have done our normal bedtime routine though because I couldn't have him thanking that his awful behaviour during the day was being excused or that him hitting the baby didn't have consequences. I felt angry towards him.

Anyhow, I've just gone into his room and thought how angelic he looks when he's asleep. I tucked him in and kissed his head and the guilt just started creeping up on me.

His behaviour has never been as bad as it was today, usually he has a few little moments during the day but is otherwise well behaved. Today he was just so deliberately naughty almost from the moment he woke up and me and DH hit the point of feeling like he should be punished. I really hate that word.

I'm sorry this post is so long, I just needed to get it off my chest. I have told DH that I feel guilty about how the day ended but he said I shouldn't as DS's behaviour had been awful all day and that hitting the baby just cannot be condoned.

Has anyone else had days and feelings like this?

I have taken on board everyone's comments, thanks to everyone who has replied.

One of my worries is that where do you draw the line between love bombing and letting DS think his bad behaviour is acceptable.

Surely when he does something naughty there has to be some kind of repercussion? If for example he's throwing his toys in a temper surely just love bombing him tells him that it's fine for him to behave that way and he'll just get kisses and cuddles?

We have been using the naughty step for quite some time now, long before the baby was born, so it isn't something new to him that he could perceive as us to be alienating him.

Like a previous poster said - how much bad behaviour do we accept before we tell him off in the same way we did pre-baby? What allowances are acceptable? Does letting him get away with things he has always been told off for before just confuse him more?

It's such a minefield

I think you’re overthinking it a bit. Follow your instincts - you know DS best!

www.gentleparenting.co.uk/kc/time-out-or-time-in/

For me there’s always the “is anyone in danger” line.

If the answer is yes - I’d punish

If the answer is no - ignore.

But also think carefully about what you allow/encourage condone when you are about.

You say you’re okay with duplo towers balanced on baby when you are in the room. How about when you are not in the room? For me, that’s something I wouldn’t allow because I wouldn’t be willing to allow it unsupervised and that’s a harder thing to understand than a black and white “no building towers on the baby”

I don't think ta fair to punish a 3 year old, especially when they're unlikely to know that their actions could hurt someone.

1. He does something dangerous/unacceptable.

1. You give an immediate sharp ‘No!’ and move him away from what he’s done.

1. You sit with him quietly, saying absolutely nothing while he has a strop/rage/tantrum in response to you stopping him from what he was doing, so that he is having his emotions acknowledged but not encouraged.

1. You then bring him to you when he’s calm, cuddle, explain what he did that was not acceptable, tell him how massively, hugely you love him, include the empathy that ‘it’s so hard being a big brother sometimes’ then you let him go on his merry way.

You don’t make him apologise for normal three year old behaviour. That’s for when he’s older and understands how his behaviour affects others. You don’t exclude him by using a naughty step - not ever in my opinion for a 3.5yo (or under), but especially not when they have a brand new sibling. You’re just giving him the message that he’s unwanted which is what NONE of you need right now, especially him.

My DH was like yours in that he was harsher than me (I think a lot of dads are, actually). I insisted he go with me to a Toddler Calm workshop and it was brilliant. He finally realised I wasn’t just making up some hippy shit.

And this:

^ Does letting him get away with things he has always been told off for before just confuse him more?^

At 3.5, he won’t have enough frontal lobe development to remember/care how you parented him last week, much less three months ago. Children want to be good. He does not have the cognitive ability yet to achieve the level of calculation over his behaviours you’re endowing on him.

Start with a clean slate. The way you manage everything changes with the addition of a sibling.

Didn't read the full thread but just wanted to say don't beat yourself up. What you've said suggests your son is growing up in an atmosphere of love (sounds so cheesy but you know what I mean) Losing your rag occasionally isn't the end of the world because of this. Also means more likely than not the adjusting to new sibling phase will be over sooner rather than later. Good luck OP you'll be fine.

He acted terribly (and he knew it) and he faced the natural consequences. If anything it seems like a good learning experience.

I also don't do forced apologies. They aren't meaningful if it's a trained response and can give the impression that it's okay to hurt people as long as you say sorry. I model apologies and DD will apologise because she means it.

I also don't do forced apologies. They aren't meaningful if it's a trained response and can give the impression that it's okay to hurt people as long as you say sorry. I model apologies and DD will apologise because she means it.

Exactly^^ this.

Janet Lansbury is awesome for this sort of stuff, by the way.

No advice, as mine are older now and I’ve —blanked out— forgotten most of this stage.

But I do remember that 3.5 is the WORST age! Really bossy, headstrong, wilful and just really hard work.

I was in a park one day a few years ago and a little boy was marching about, telling everything off. He even shouted at a nearby dog (not owned by his family) to stop barking. He was 3.5.

You've had some great advice on this thread and hopefully you're feeling a bit better about it all. I would also highly recommend ahaparenting website by Laura Markham and she addresses your very question about behaviour needing consequences (or not). I would also highly recommend a book called 'coping with two. I found it really helpful when dd was born and ds was 2.7yo.

It sounds like you're doing a great job and when you've got two it's normal to feel split in half most of the time
Although I ascribe to the ahaparenting stuff my temper gets the better of me more than I'd like and so the 'thinking step' is used in this house once they've turned 3. One minute per year of life and three chances before ending up there. We find it helps everyone calm down and then we calmly talk about the behaviour.

Fwiw, my two have a great sibling bond and mostly take out any frustration or anger on their parents, not each other!

I recommend Janet Lansbury's articles or podcasts on siblings.

No you don't need to punish, but equally you absolutely should not be 'love-bombing' when you're not feeling it. He will know.

You don't need to worry about him knowing what is wrong from right, he knows hitting is wrong. It's totally normal impulsive behaviour for his age and situation. However, you as his parents need to help both of your children by preventing it, if it's becoming a pattern. Separate safe play spaces, unless you're there to supervise. When you are there, be prepared for misbehaviour and ready to block any hits. Show him how to behave and be pleasant, don't punish him.

Don't ask more of him than he can manage right now. As a pp said, his entire world has been rocked.

I think it's quite telling that your dh takes a harder line and then he plays up more when he is there.

the 'thinking step' is used in this house once they've turned 3. One minute per year of life and three chances before ending up there. We find it helps everyone calm down and then we calmly talk about the behaviour.

Sounds exactly like a naughty step!

so the 'thinking step' is used in this house once they've turned 3. One minute per year of life and three chances before ending up there. We find it helps everyone calm down and then we calmly talk about the behaviour.

That's what we do. We only ever initiated it because when he was just turned three he was persistently hitting us, kicking out and just generally hurting us very frequently even though he knew it was wrong. The use of the step improved things dramatically and when that aspect of his behaviour improved we never really used it again. In general it was our last resort and only in response to him physically hurting one of us, hence why I put him on the step when he hit his brother.

The other thing he does is throw things in temper and when he does we tell him not to do it again but he always does. We then say "If you throw that again then we are going to take it off you" and then we follow that through when he throws it again, which he always does. We don't shout at him or make a scene about it, we just calmly take it off him and then act normally towards him. It makes it very difficult though when he starts throwing the baby's things around because to remove them would be detrimental to the baby, not DS.

It is the naughty step, but semantics matter anyway, it's more to give me time out sometimes, not them!

We had a similar issue with throwing so there are some things which are instant thinking step (i.e. No 3 strikes and you're out) and they are throwing and hurting others. He grew out of it eventually but we tried all sorts to address it. Maybe have some scrunched up balls of paper so if he wants to throw he can? The trampoline is brilliant for calming children down too. We rated the books 'hands are not for hitting' and 'teeth are not for biting'. It's also really important to verbalise his feelings/thoughts and set acceptable limits: "it must be rubbish to have a baby brother sometimes and it's okay to feel like you wish he wasn't here, but it's not okay to throw/hit/hurt etc"

Wrt being rough with the baby, we had zero tolerance on this and ds never really tried to pick her up or anything. Constantly reminding 'kind hands' had some effect.

Ds doesn't throw now but hurls abuse instead. Well, we were always telling him to use his words....

I forgot to mention, I would really try to avoid making his bedroom a place of 'punishment' - it's important he feels safe and happy in his room, or you may pay the price at bedtime! Coping with Two was my bible in the early days

I use the naughty step too (rarely) or going to bedroom to calm down. Don't let others make you feel guilty about how you choose to discipline. Sounds like a perfectly acceptable reaction to me.

I will look into purchasing that book, thanks for the tip

If his dinner ended up on the floor as a result of his tantrum, I definitely wouldn't have given him anything else.

Sounds like a perfectly acceptable reaction to me.

Thanks Cotton.

I went to visit a friend today who has two boys, one who is almost four and the other one has just turned two. She's obviously been through the early days of having two and dealing with the dramas when a second baby comes into the mix so I figured I could talk to her about her own experiences.

When I told her about the horror of the other day she said that if she'd been in my shoes no way would she have tolerated DS hitting the baby and she would have "gone mental!" She said she wasn't surprised that DH and I reacted the way we did but can completely sympathise with the feeling guilty with hindsight as she's been there 100 times herself.

She said that we're all human, we all have moment where we just see red and as a result we say and do things that aren't ideal but it happens and I shouldn't beat myself up about it.

DS hasn't mentioned it since, if anything his behaviour has been better and he's still showing love towards me and DH as he always does so he doesn't seem as traumatised by it all as I am....

Tonight the baby treated me to a quick bedtime which meant I got to sneak into DS's room and have some kisses and cuddles as DH has been the one who'd put him to bed. I told him I was really happy with his behaviour over the last two days and that he was such a good brother and told him that me and daddy love him very much. He then did the same as last night: shuffled over and said he would share his bed so I could stay with him all night.

He's in pre-school tomorrow and whilst I'm on Maternity Leave I pick him up each day he's there, even though it's on DH's way home from work, just because it gives me and DS another shared experience. I love seeing his little face light up when he spots me and I love having the car journey home where it's just me and him, even though it's only for 10 minutes, where we can chat about his day and laugh together - it just feels really nice.

Sending you hugs x

I think your doing amazing for staying strong with oh and being united in your approach. Setting boundaries is good and will be worth it in the long run

Honestly don't feel bad, I don't think your reaction was unreasonable. Children need boundaries. My son had really naughty days too and he's an only child. He's almost 3. Obviously he is jealous of the baby and probably sees him (quite rightly) as the reason he is not getting your sole attention any more. Also he is still little and they are not able to fully express their feelings so misbehaving and getting angry is the only way they can let things out. Keep going, you're doing great!