Feedback welcome

[Othersideofthechannel]

My childless by choice friend has just had this published. She's interested in feedback from parents: here

I don't like my husband because he is currently an arse and has fecked up yet another holiday .. but having the children softens the dislike slightly because I love when he comes home and takes over

I do think your DH is being unfair because he is, as I suspected, putting the onus on you ... typical male behaviour

Hi Anna
I read your article on saturday too, thinking wouldn't it be great to get a chance to talk to you about it. How great that you are here!
I'm one of those people who always knew I needed kids and could never explain that yearning rationally, but I do think that it makes every sense not to make a person if you don't want to (sadly how many unwanted children are made by more thoughtless people).
But just a small point - all those things which you mention as the benefits of a childfree life aren't really such a closed world to parents. Yes, agreed the first few years can be a slog but it's only a brief moment of time before you are able to have a blackcurrant free sofa again. That childfree life of theatre visits, trips to Barcelona and meals in nice restaurants all comes back within just a few years. It's just that it comes back better as you can share the joy of discovery with your child. Eating out together and introducing my children to different food is a great treat, they are more fascinating and fascinated travel companions than any adult I have travelled with (I will never forget the look of total awe on my son's face when he first saw an elephant) and they are now old enough to sit through a good comedy at a theatre. The only difference is that I now know that the greatest theatre experience I will ever have was watching one son play Joseph in the school nativity while the other was a sheep.

Nobody can rationalise the feelings about motherhood because it's not rational. It just is the meaning of life.

"The only difference is that I now know that the greatest theatre experience I will ever have was watching one son play Joseph in the school nativity while the other was a sheep."

Anna, I loved your article and second what most people have said here. It seems to me that you're convincing yourself to have kids rather than saying your choose not to.

My DH hates kids. I'm not to fond of other people's children. However we are both totally and utterly smitten with our own two girls. To see him with them is an absolute joy and the fact that we made them together brings us closer together.

Yes, we speak whilstfully of the days when we woke up naturally withut being dragged from our sleep by the demands of our offspring. Yes, we miss the option of holidays in beautiful resorts taken at a moment's notice. Yes, we miss skiing. Yes, we hate the plethora of plastic toys. Yes, if I have to read that bloody Noddy book again I'm going to go bonkers. Yes, we argue a bit more out of tiredness & frustration. But we have never for an instant wished we hadn't had our kids nor will we ever regret it. Our marriage could go tits up at some point in the future, but it would never be because we chose to have a family.

I think that in your piece you have managed to articulate a mother's love so closely to the real thing that if you're pretty much almost there.

Sorry I meant "you're convincing yourself NOT to have kids rather than saying you choose not to."

Must preview my posts...

Hi Anna

I can understand totally where you are coming from. To answer some of your questions, yes I think I do love my kids more than my DH now. Yes there are times when I wish I could turn the clock back to those halcyon days before kids. These are the days when you have been tested to the limit and when you finally flop into the sofa, your hair still in the scrunchy style from the morning you realise that you've only got a couple of hours max before you NEED to go to bed, you think "shit" oh to have no responsibilities. But as much as my kids annoy the hell out of me (a lot), they are adorable. In your position it would be good to have a crystal ball to look into the future to see what you'd be like in the same situation but only if the kids have their looks and personality masked out. Once you see that you fall in love and that's when you know you are their everything and the love overwhelms.

Perhaps I should start a new thread asking only people who regret having started a family to post messages.

Only I doubt anyone would, because it seems that either it's a decision you just don't regret or else noone can admit it.

Hmm; that sounded unkind and I didn't mean it to...

Thanks for saying you liked the piece, by the way. Really flattering.

Twiglett, sorry, didn't answer your earlier question. I'll be 34 next month.

Anna - it seems strange to me that you worry about loving your partner less than your child. If you truly love your partner, isn't it the most wonderful awe-inspiring thing to create a baby that is a combination of you and him together in a totally unique new person?
Having a baby with someone is a bit like travelling with them. You need to really like them before you start because they will get on your nerves at times, but having someone you love with you to share the view with from the top of the mountain may make you appreciate the experience and value that person even more.

I worried that I might not have enough love left over for children because I felt that my relationship with my dh was so strong. We started a family from a "what next and why not" sort of perspective, and because dh was broody. Eight years down the line we are separated, and the children and how it changed the dynamics of our relationship played a major part in that, so yes there was a cost to having them, I guess. But when I look back I can see the seeds of the problems many many years ago, and I guess my only regret would be choosing to have children with him (and I'm not sure I even think that to be honest - I just wish we'd resolved our probelms as they came along tbh). As for what they bring, well for me the very best thing is waking up on a weekend morning, and hearing them in their room playing some make believe game, and thinking that I played a part in who they are. The other thing, on a more practical note, is that if you don't have children you are never going to have grandchildren, and being a granny looks great!

I thought that was a really spot on letter and shows the 2 halves that some people are. I have an 8month old who I love but I am also selfish and miss my freedom and peace. If dd were to go I'd die and life would be empty. So half of her has made the right decision! but she'l regret it later because they're only little for a blink of an eye and then they're adults who you can have an amazing friendship with and a happy old age.

Anna, I read your piece in the Guardian and found it very moving. I really identified with your ambivalence because I felt like that for a long time. I had a huge pull towards having children, but was in a far from ideal situation. I remember thinking that if I was at all ambivalent, I shouldn't choose to have a child. It was like I was waiting for guarantees that it would all be fabulous and I would never regret it. Of course, you can never know that.

I'm not saying that I think you should have a child - what do I know? And I don't think that your ambivalence means actually you really want a child - i think it means you are ambivalent, and yes some women do regret motherhood.

I wonder how old you are, and whether your biological clock might be making this decision particularly fraught for you. In the end I overrode my ambivalence because my entire body screamed out to be pregnant, and because I couldn't bear the thought that I would regret staying childless for the rest of the my life. (It then took me six years to become a mother, and there's nothing like feeling you can't get something to make you passionately want it!) Now I have a charming, eccentric, woolly-haired toddler, and she is of course the light of my life. I'm broke, I'm tired, I never get to read books anymore, and yes yes yes she is worth all of it. But I wouldn't extrapolate from my experience to suggest what any other woman should do.

Good luck with whatever path you take.

dp said to me last night (and he was sober, btw)

"I love you. I mean I really love you. You're the mother of my children, how could I not love you"

And he was just telling me he loves me.

Anna, there have been a few threads along those lines (a while ago).

I didn't want to have children at the time when I fell pregnant - nobody that knew me could hide their surprise - even my family couldn't believe that I was actually going to have children. Dp didn't want them either (and had categorically said so) and I did give him the option of bailing out.

However, 6, nearly 7 years on, we have 2 gorgeous children, a chaotic household, a house that will be lovely one day and a partnership that's still working.

Most of the obstacles you mention in your letter are material things - and believe me, in the greater scheme of life, those things don't matter that much. Like others have said, if you are thinking about it as much as you are, you probably do want them . I didn't want them (at the time) and never even considered it for more than a second.

However, we have friends without children who are happy and that's their choice! There's no right or wrong here.

Re the resentment you mention - I don't resent the children - I have resented dp/dh at times and myself often but have never felt that towards the children.

Thanks for all your help, mums. I think it's certainly an issue me and hubbie both need to give more thought to. (I know some of you will say that I'm thinking too much and should just get on with it!)

It has suprised me to be honest, hearing such huge numbers of women plainly adoring being mothers. You don't always see that when you're observing families - it often just looks like a slog.

This discussion has made me think that I don't want to reach 50 and have regrets. So either way, I need to be as sure as I can be that I'm doing the right thing.

Thanks again for all your honesty and advice. It's certainly got us thinking.

Glad to have helped in a small way, Anna.

Men often do find it hard to imagine being dads, I think. DH certainly did. The decision was mine to do it when we did - if it had been up to him, we'd still be childless.

BUT that's because he's the kind of chap who's happy with the status quo. His motto would be "don't rock the boat" or "if it ain't broke, why fix it?".

And had the decision not been forced on me by suspected infertility, I would probably be getting round to thinking about it now, as opposed to having two children already.

Doesn't mean I regret having the boys though - it's like someone making you try what turns out to be your favourite food - how could you regret that?!

Good luck with your decision. Let us know, won't you? xxx

Hi,

Firstly, apologies for the length ..

I think you are analysing the decision too deeply. I don't blame you ... if that is what is in your nature to do.
I was exactly the same, always analysing everything to the point of chasing my tail.
I wasn't bothered about children, had nieces and nephews and was fine with that. Wasn't fussed about getting married either. Had a nice house, lived on my own, did exactly what I wanted to do & when I wanted to do it.

But then ...

I met my husband, got married (at 39), got pregnant on honeymoon and now have the most 'AMAZING' 3yo dd I could have imagined.

Believe me, your life will change! It's hard, knackering at times, emotionally good and bad BUT utterly, utterly wonderful.
You cannot explain the total love you feel for your child. Sometimes I feel I could explode. Just last night my dd and I were hugging and dancing to Josh Grobans 'February Song' and I was blubbering away as it was such a special moment. My dd was telling me she loved me 'so' much and it was all a bit too much for me.

If you have doubts about your decision just keep this in your mind - you cannot compare the reward and joy that your own child will bring you against that of a stain free sofa and tidy house. Don't regret missing out.

In my experience those people who you'd think would never have children or would not necessarily make natural parents turn out to be amazing parents & end up coping better than some parents who you'd originally have thought would be more natural.

My dd has a very special relationship with her daddy and grandad and it's wonderful to see.
We have a really magical time, fairies, princesses and lots of make believe. There really is nothing more special than snuggling up in dd's bedroom at bedtime underneath her fairy bed canopy reading 'Winnie the Witch' with fairy classical music & dimmed lights.

Rose tinted glasses ? Not at all, it's just how it is. On the flip side, having to deal with a toddler tantrum in Sainsbury's or a refusal to get dressed in the morning or walking into the lounge to find a crayon masterpiece on the wall or sitting up all night administering calpol and soothing a coughing, snot filled child is not most peoples idea of fun.

In a long winded way, what I am trying to say to you is that every aspect of having a child is 'a moment' and those moments make your memories and 9 times out of 10 make your heart sing.
I am so glad I made the decision to just 'go for it', time wasn't on my side and if I'd continued to fanny around trying to convince myself that I didn't want the disruption of a child I'd have missed the boat and all the wonderful things that I've experienced since.

Life hasn't been easy, I've had physical problems e.g. back pain, joint problems & difficulty losing weight etc. but I am getting back to normal and really do feel blessed.

Good luck with your decision, you'll make the right one

I didn't want kids, I thought they were revolting. I still did throughout my pregnancy with ds1.

Then out he popped and IT WAS LIKE BEING WALLOPED WITH A FECKING HALF BRICK, I LOVED HIM SO MUCH! Within 4 minutes of him being born I was ready to tear, limb from limb, anyone who tried to remove him from my grip. Bearing in mind, 20 minutes previously I was wondering if they would keep him in the nursery for a few days so i could get some sleep.

You don't end up loving your husband less, you just love your children more. You still love your husband as much as you ever did, if not more, but you love your children more. Your love for your children is like a knife to the heart, it burns and consumes, and I do wonder how I ever lived at all without that drive.

Anna, your letter to your child sounds so very much like a lament of loss. It seems you have pictured your life with a child, and are saying goodbye to it, as if you are too sacared to do it, not as if you think it is definately the right thing to do. There is plenty of time to have peace, and order, and beige sofas when you are old.

You will read this site and think "But some of these women hate their husbands!" true, but most would have hated him anyway, had he ever been put in the father position of being breadwinner. Good men handle that well.

I agree with Anna that when you see some parents out and about it looks awful. It's something I noticed before I had kids. Parents grim faced, ignoring their child's attempts at conversation, or shouting at them....I used to think, why do people do it if it's so awful?

I know now that this is only a snapshot, much of the day may be all sweetness and light; also I do know that it's possible to have a child and NOT ignore them or shout at them. If ds talks to me, I talk to him and it's a great joy talking with him! I have never actually shouted at my ds at all; it's not compulsory....most of our days are such fun, and I'm smiling most of the time....

and I agree with Tillyboo, just because you're unsure about it doesn't mean you won't be a happy, good parent; my SIL had always planned on two children, and she now has that, but has found it hard work, hasn't found that she feels a 'natural' mum; she's enjoying it now that her kids are school age and not with her so much! whereas I was allergic to children till I was 34 when I had ds, and I have LOVED it beyond belief!

Very good analogy about not loving your DH less but just loving your children more. You can't help it. They are part of you in a way that no-one else ever can be. Also I think women are hard wired when it comes to kids and just mature much more quickly than men when kids arrive on the scene. I'm sure a lot of resentment people have mentioned here stems from that. My DH is a wonderful husband and father but at times I could gleefully drop kick him into the sea because of his lack of understanding and inability to sense the enormous responsibility of raising kids. E.g.

• leaving hot pan handles sticking out to be grabbed
• wandering around with hot cup of tea hovering over kids' heads
• allowing DD to disappear under the water in the swimming pool as he struggles (ironically) to blow up her water wings
• allowing DS to fall off a sofa and hit his head off a coffee table because he's consumed with interest in the footie results
• driving like a moron when kids are in back of car
• fixing something and leaving his open toolbox on the floor for inquisitive kids to explore with glee (is full of stanley knives, saws, and such like)

Nothing can prepare you for that lurch you get when you sense your kids may be in danger and (IMO) I think women have to work doubly hard at this because of the shortcomings of men in this department. That part is the hardest work and I'm not a helicopter mother.

The small things that keep you going are when you see your kids' smiley happy faces just because they've seen you. Giving them a wee sandwich and a picnic treat to hear them say "ooooh thankyou very much I love you mummy".

Anna! Hope you keep popping back to read. I just had to tell you, you could be me, 1 year and nine months ago.

I have SO identified with everything you have posted, and yet here I am, having just celebrated my little boy's first birthday.

All the while dh and I were trying for a baby, a big part of me was worrying, because I loved my life at the time: great career, fantastic relationship with dh, comfortably off, active social life with lots of childless friends. What more could I want? Why would I want to change all that for sleepless nights, shitty nappies, vomit and tantrums, poverty and career suicide? I looked at other people's children and thought, God it's all such hard work and I'm so crap with children. And the real biggie was that I worried about what it would do to my marriage. For I knew that if we did have a child, I would love it more than anything, and certainly more than dh, and could I do that to him? Did I really want to shift the centre of my universe from the man of my dreams to a screaming baby?

I also thought the same as you: should I be trying for a baby if I'm having these misgivings? What if I don't enjoy motherhood? Is it fair to bring a child into the world if you are not sure? Well, I am now convinced that for many people, especially people like you and me who try to work everything out 100% in our heads, that these are all totally natural concerns and are not an indicator that one shouldn't have a child. I also firmly believe that having a child is such a massive life-altering experience that it is impossible for this type of person to be 100% sure about it. But the fact that doubts exist does not mean it isn't a good idea. Oddly enough, I had very similar doubts about dh before we got married. What if I fell out of love years down the line? How could I be 100% sure we'd be together forever? You can't. There are no guarantees. But we always have the chance in life to react to situations and shape them in the best way.

So anyway I got pregnant and ds came along. Like Colditz, it's like being run over by a bus how the love hits you. Yes, I love ds more than my dh, but I don't love my dh any less. Life altogether is somehow more. More intense, more happy, more sad, more difficult, more fun, more tiring, more rewarding. There are moments when I find myself nostalgic for my childless life: e.g. 2.30 am and I'm mopping up pools of diarrhoea, or struggling to meet a deadline at work and ds's nursery rings to say he's poorly, or looking at my bank balance, or when a cry comes over the monitor just as dh and I are getting jiggy. But it is OK to recognise that your childless life was good too and to miss it sometimes. That does not mean you are wishing your baby was never born or that you are regretting your decision.

I had counselling for many months to get me over fears and doubts like this because they were driving my life into a standstill. So I feel like I know what I'm talking about. I just had to post because you reminded me so much about me, and I just wanted to tell you my story.

You lot are so lovely.

And I think you're probably right too.

(Eek)

Anna .. don't think you'll get many negative responses to having children on a parenting site .. we spend time here because our children are so very important to us and there's a secret code between parents

I do believe there is a chidless by choice website though

ooo bugger I wrote that post this morning before I left for the day and have just come back on and it posted .. weird ... hope its not totally out of whack with the continuing conversation