Why why WHY do my kids do this?!!

[NoCapes]

And how do I make it stop?!

Every single BASTARDING night we have this!

They're 4 & 6, bedtime has always been a nightmare, particularly the 6 year old. In the past I've been known to still be sitting on his bedroom floor at 2am (from 7pm) sometimes with him still awake.
The 4 year old has on the whole been pretty good, but then of course started copying her brother.

Things got better for a while, then within the last 12/18 months or so we've been on a downward spiral and I'm about at breaking point.

They go to bed fine, 4 year old goes first; story, milk, kisses, goodnight. Then the same for the 6 year old, all lovely.
Then it begins.
Up, down, in and out of each other's bedrooms, shouting down the stairs oh God the shouting down the stairs - "they need water they need a wee they need a poo they need their in-haler they need a teddy they need a different teddy DS is shouting DD is shouting" and on and on and on...

But the worst part is - they need a response!
So it's "I'm going to the toilet!...Mum! I'm going to the toilet! Muuuuum I'm having a wee! Muuuuum! Mum! Mum! Mum!"
WHY!?!?!?! Just go to the fucking toilet!!!!! No-one cares!!!!!!!!!

We have a new baby and I'm constantly waking him up just shouting "shush" up the stairs! It is a fucking joke!!

I am seriously at the end of my tether and by about 9:20 tonight I was half way out of the door!
Someone please help me?!!

Poor OP. This thread sums up everything I dislike about Mumsnet. Sometimes it's great and you get some funny, clever and helpful replies. Sometimes you get a load of sanctimonious nit picking wankers.

Why on earth does reason and logic make you cross. What can make somebody angry about positive parenting. Surely it's better than wanting your children to bugger off.

Beaufort its the unrestrained schmaltz and refusal to acknowledge the tough side of parenting which has plenty of (great) mothers feeling like shit because they experience their children as children actually are (ie whiny little poorly behaved pains in the ass at times) and not how the Goddesses Of Motherhood tell them it should be.

You just serve to make normal mothers feel crap.

Not read whole thread but.

Your problem is the baby. If it weren't for the baby you could just tell them you will not respond to any shouts and leave them to shout themselves silly for a few nights - after a few evenings of no response they would stop.

But, you've got the issue of trying to keep them from waking the baby. And they kind of know that and are exploiting it...

Is there any chance you could put the baby to bed somewhere different where they wouldn't be woken by your older two? Not permanently, just for a few nights while you do the not responding thing.

Or just accept the baby being woken up and you'll have to resettle the baby (again this is just a temporary thing while they learn shouting gets no response).

Oh, looks like I missed quite a lot by not reading the thread! Probably for the best. A for Beaufort in particular.

Jeez - a some other posters have said MN is either terrifically helpful or just full of sanctimonious arses trying to make you feel inadequate about how much "love" your kids are getting because you actually want them to go to sleep at a reasonable time .

Reminds me of when I posted for advice on how to get my 3yo to stay in his bed at night & was told I was punishing him for wanting to be with me at 3am & should let him into my bed to keep me awake snuggle. The fact I have to get up for work the next day & function normally seems to be irrelevant. OP I don't think you are doing anything wrong - kids are just frustrating sometimes, especially when they know they are pushing all your buttons ( & you have a new baby to look after!) My own policy is to deal with bedtime nonsense quickly & sharply. The less attention they get when out of bed the better. Genuine requests for toilet/ drinks only & if it carries on then lights off/ door shut/ toys confiscated.

In the end my 3yo is now getting much better at staying in his own bed - unfortunately experience seems to suggest that eventually they will grow out of it! Ignore those who are telling you that you have "issues" with your family just because you want to spend a bit of time drinking wine on your own in the evenings & also the whole asthma management "debate". Good luck though!!

I think many children need more positive attention during the day, early evening

this- early evening- is the hardest time to give them attention, esPECIALly with three of them and food/bed to manage

a lot of the time my kids played up at bedtime because it was fun. They had plenty of fun/positive attention in the daytime (home edded)- they wanted some more fun. A lot of kids don't like bedtime and would rather stay up till they drop, and feel sad and grumpy all the next day. It's fuck all to do with positive attention or lack of ime

Why do you think asthma might not be part of the problem, Rainatnight?
What is so unacceptable about, for example, pointing out that asthma meds can cause insomnia?

Positive attention can be a smile and a comment such as, 'I really liked the way you played quietly by yourself this evening' / 'I liked the way you read quietly for an hour this afternoon'. You catch them doing what you want them to do at night being quiet and self sufficient and you compliment them on it. You can train them to go in an entirely different direction from the one they are heading in right now. If they are never quiet or self sufficient, then you need to introduce that into their day by asking for that and complimenting them when they perform.

What is so unacceptable about, for example, pointing out that asthma meds can cause insomnia?

*Or that the experience of not being able to breathe and being treated in hospital for that can cause anxiety?

I've read the whole thread.

NoCapes (I am so saying that in my head as Edna Mode) I loved the original post, and have had a very minor brush or two with this 'jack-in-the-box' bedtime routine with 'just need a drink/forgot teddy/need the toilet'. I don't think there's an honest parent out there who wouldn't admit to having been there to some degree or another.

Bedtime in our house starts with getting a drink of water, going to the toilet followed by hands, face and teeth, getting changed and jumping into bed. DH and I then do big cuddles and kisses goodnight, lights out and it's sleeping time. All 3 of the younger biters (10,9,6) go to bed at the same time, usually 7.30 and we find it works very well.

Essentially we try and make sure that we've covered every possible stalling angle and that bedtime is always cuddly and nice. Post-bedtime shinannigans however, are not tolerated and escapees are treated to a visit from parents with 'The Stern Voice' who say things like 'What are you up to? Back to bed young man/lady" and "Get to sleep! One more peep and there's no pudding for you tomorrow".

The two older ones are now allowed half an hour on their timed lights for reading, which we introduced about a year ago as 7.30 is quite early but the into bed at the same time really works as regards everyone's doing it so they all get the same attention at the same time iyswim.

Blackout blinds/heavily lined curtains also made a huge practical difference when they were younger (especially in the Summer months when peers who are allowed to play out until who knows what time could cause dissent in the ranks ) but now they go no dramas regardless of the sunlight.

In short, prior preparation prevents piddling about post bedtime If you explain the 'new' rules clearly and follow through they'll have it sussed in no time I'm sure.

Congratulations on anklebiter no3, good luck and

OP I have no real advice on this I just wanted to that say I feel your pain, oh God it's awful isn't it. My DS was exactly like this he didn't sleep at all for the first three years and didn't sleep through the night until he was 5. Bedtime was always a nightmare...the constant shouting down the stairs aaaaaaarggh just thinking about it makes me mad! Especially the 'I need a wee' wtf you are literally right next to the toilet JUST GO FOR ONE! and why does everything EVERYTHING need a response my DS would literally narrate his every move/thought from the second he woke up to the second he went to sleep and every single thing would need a response, I'd put the TV on for him for 5 mins of peace but noooo he would narrate the TV show for me too!! It's very tiring. He is 8 now and still does it a little but nowhere near as bad and although bedtime still takes 3 hours it's a much quieter 3 hours

Oh THAT'S where No Capes comes from!

I've been wracking my brains since your first post [dense]

The other big question this thread begs is 'Where is your DP/DH all night and if he is anywhere close, why isn't he doing any of the heavy lifting here?'

Apologies if you are a single mum or if he does shift work.

Don't keep them up until 9pm that's far too late for a 4 and 6 year old! It won't work either. It's. Discipline issue, it's all habit, they don't need you at all. After you say goodnight go downstairs. Ignore all shouting for you and leave them to it.

this
Unfortunately you are indulging this behaviour and actually causing it. No drinks no extras an agreed amount of stories and cuddles a goodnight kiss and if I see you again before morning I will be cross/ignore you. My dd pushed every boundary and this was the advice I was given and took. She got better slowly but she's still crap at going to bed alone and sleeping at 25.

I haven't read the whole thread. But when mine were little and still even now would put a story CD on for them at night as a treat. It helped loads and improved their vocabulary! I also told them that their body rests and they grew taller whilst they were sleeping lol. No child wants to stay small! Works a treat!

Children in Spain, France, Italy and many other parts of the world hit the hay later than 9 pm. The idea that children need to be in bed at 7 (as well as an emphasis on child-free 'me time' for parents) is ingrained in British culture, but children elsewhere seem to do fine with later bedtimes. Some cultures value the social experience of communal family life more.

Children in many of the countries you've listed would have a long afternoon nap mathanxiety. The total amount of sleep might well be very similar.

No reason to think that having an earlier evening bedtime means that you don't have a communal family life. In my wider family I have observed those families that let their children stay up late seem to spend far less time actually interacting with them than those who send them up to bed earlier.

How are things, OP? I was thinking of you the other day when Netflix emailed me an ad for five-minute videos for kids just for bedtimes!

Communal doesn't necessarily have to involve interaction. It can mean children and adults existing peacefully together in the same room without children needing constant attention or parents parenting the heck out of the children constantly. It is good for children to learn self sufficiency and to adapt to an environment that is not child focused.

www.aasmnet.org/Articles.aspx?id=913
A reference to an article on differing bedtimes among Asian and Anglo countries. No significant differences in naps were observed.