Why why WHY do my kids do this?!!

[NoCapes]

And how do I make it stop?!

Every single BASTARDING night we have this!

They're 4 & 6, bedtime has always been a nightmare, particularly the 6 year old. In the past I've been known to still be sitting on his bedroom floor at 2am (from 7pm) sometimes with him still awake.
The 4 year old has on the whole been pretty good, but then of course started copying her brother.

Things got better for a while, then within the last 12/18 months or so we've been on a downward spiral and I'm about at breaking point.

They go to bed fine, 4 year old goes first; story, milk, kisses, goodnight. Then the same for the 6 year old, all lovely.
Then it begins.
Up, down, in and out of each other's bedrooms, shouting down the stairs oh God the shouting down the stairs - "they need water they need a wee they need a poo they need their in-haler they need a teddy they need a different teddy DS is shouting DD is shouting" and on and on and on...

But the worst part is - they need a response!
So it's "I'm going to the toilet!...Mum! I'm going to the toilet! Muuuuum I'm having a wee! Muuuuum! Mum! Mum! Mum!"
WHY!?!?!?! Just go to the fucking toilet!!!!! No-one cares!!!!!!!!!

We have a new baby and I'm constantly waking him up just shouting "shush" up the stairs! It is a fucking joke!!

I am seriously at the end of my tether and by about 9:20 tonight I was half way out of the door!
Someone please help me?!!

Why is his inhaler accessible in case of an emergency if you always administer it?

Um, in case of an emergency, math?

Give the OP a break.

With regards to the in-halers, DS has never taken it without me (or another adult) present, of course I keep track of when he's taking medication!
The OP has said she hears all asthma attacks and administers all medicine herself. My question was why therefore does the DS have his inhaler accessible to him when he goes to bed?

Actually, I don't think it's entirely clear that the inhaler is always administered by the OP, or that all use is monitored:
I think it's important that my child (it's only the 6 year old that has in-halers) can recognise when he needs to take his in-healer and can give it himself

We have established nothing about what the DS says except that he makes things up and doesn't distinguish reality from imagination. You can't rely on lack of verbal reporting of inhaler use. If you have left the inhaler where he can get it, you do not actually know if he uses it.

If the child is using the inhaler himself, unsupervised, this has to stop.

OP, an asthma attack in the night that a child is expected to cope with himself is a very frightening event for the child. He has severe asthma and you need to address his anxiety about it. This will involve always administering his medication and not expecting him to decide when it is needed and how much to use/which inhaler to use. He is six.

OP thanks for this thread, my 3 year old ds can play up. I've gone for the "I'm not going to engage in his attention seeking " to resolve it. Plus a bedtime chart for going to bed well.

As for the hard time you have gotten over the inhaler, you know your child. I would leave one with him to safe in the knowledge that any little sniffle from ds room I automatically wake up and would be there. He would just feel safe knowing its there and you are on your way.

A monitor would make him feel just as safe and nobody would be worried about the DS using the inhaler on his own, not keeping track of when he last used it, using it improperly (and thus ineffectively), or overdosing.

He should have a spacer to use with the inhaler since he is under ten.

It is not a case of 'you know your child'. Leaving an inhaler where the six year old can access it (and if the four year old is in and out of his room perhaps she can access it too?) is dangerous and should not happen.

UK advice is that children should have their reliever inhaler on them at all times. I imagine that's what the OP's son has by his bed. He'll have to carry it and use it himself at school in any case. And yes at six he should be able to decide when to use it (Asthma UK have a nice self management guide for children aimed at 6-11 year olds).

There are a number of different inhaled medicines that people with asthma can take, depending on their symptoms. My dd for example generally only has to use a reliever inhaler when she exercises or gets stressed. She is a teenager but uses a spacer as they are more effective than the inhaler alone (ie it's not an age thing, except really small children can use a mask too).

She also has a preventer inhaler which has steroids in it which she uses when she has a cold/cough. It's much more powerful, and taken once a day, not as and when needed. If she was young we'd need to keep that one in our medicine cabinet and under supervision. There are other more powerful inhalers that can be prescribed if needed, which would also need careful management but I imagine if the OP's ds had very severe asthma she would have said so.

He does have severe asthma, managed with 'quite strong inhalers' and steroid treatment every few months. That is why she needs to commit to holding onto the inhaler and administering it properly herself.

A six year old child is too young to leave it to his own judgement as to when he will use it, how often, and how much at each administration.

The fact that he has severe asthma means she should be in charge of all use of the rescue inhaler so that the doctor can be completely on top of how things are going.

'Managing Asthma in Children' from asthma.org.uk:
'It’s very important to be prepared and know what you need to do quickly if your child has an asthma attack.'

'Because you’ve talked through the plan with your GP or asthma nurse, you’ll feel more confident about knowing when to give your child extra puffs of their reliever inhaler when they need them. This means they can quickly get back in control of their asthma again. You’ll also be clear on when you need to call 999.'

Being 'in control' of asthma does not mean administering your own medicine. It means maintaining or decreasing symptoms through proper use of control and rescue medications, elimination of triggers, and correct monitoring of symptoms. This is not a role for a six year old.

Scroll down for 'What to do if a child is having an asthma attack' --
"Help them take one puff of their rescue inhaler (usually blue) every 30 to 60 seconds, up to a maximum of ten puffs."

Would you trust a six year old to count to ten puffs every 30 to 60 seconds, in a fraught situation where he is not breathing efficiently?

The advice very clearly assumes the parent is helping the child with medication in case of an attack, so the parent should have the inhaler close at hand, not the child.

Having had a poor sleeper who was also severely asthmatic until he was about seven, I agree with mathanxiety. We used a steroid inhaler morning and night and a reliever as required. Unless ds was under the weather with a cold or there had been a trigger such as dry ice, leaf mould, etc, he rarely needed the reliever. When he was particularly unwell we had a nebuliser and if he was on a course of oral steroids (very infrequent after 2.5) I slept in his room. If he needed the neb or steroids I felt he needed me too. Even severe asthma should be manageable nowadays and if it isn't and if a six year old needs random night time relievers then he needs a referral to a consultant and the op needs a couple of sessions with a specialist asthma nurse.

But most people use the reliever to prevent an attack, my dd uses hers a few times every week when her chest feels tight and she has yet to have a serious attack (and yes we do know what a serious attack looks like as dh's mother died from one, at home and I attempted CPR while we waited for the ambulance to arrive). Of course a parent should be there if he is struggling to breathe, but the OP has already said that that would be the case.

I'm not sure why you have decided that the OP is ineptly managing her child's illness. Nothing she has posted suggests that. I'd also be really surprised if the family aren't being supported by specialists given that her ds is getting regular courses of steroids.

I'm going back a long way here but we called the steroid inhaler, (pulmicort - brown), a preventor and it was used morning and evening every day. If, in spite of that, there was wheeziness and coughing we used the reliever, the blue puffer (ventolin).

When ds was very small he had to have the occasional course of oral steroids too and we were given a nebuliser for when he was quite poorly. Advice back then was if there was no improvement after 10 puffs or the neb, call an ambulance.

I stand by what I said. If the asthma is so poorly controlled night time attacks requiring a lot of inhaler (reliever) are necessary, the lad needs referral quite urgently.

I have said this several times now - he does not take the inhaler by himself.
He does not think it is a fun thing, he does not play with it, it goes untouched unless he needs to take it. Honestly if your child thinks an inhaler is so fun and interesting you need to buy them better toys .

He has the preventative one (brown one) morning and night which is in the medicine cabinet, he has a blue one in his room (yes he has a spacer, not sure why that was brought up though ). He knows where the blue one is, he can reach it and he knows how to use it himself, as of yet he hasn't ever had to administer it himself but he knows what to do if that situation ever arises which yes I do think is important.

I don't know why math seems to think I would hear him having an asthma attack and think "ah fuck him he knows where his inhaler is" and leave him to it.
Nowhere in this thread have I said anything of the sort and I am seriously upset and offended at the accusations that I am neglectful.

And Belle we do have an asthma nurse and like I've said already, multiple times, we do manage his asthma.
He has also been on steroids/nebulisers several times and again, nowhere have I said I leave him alone (he's always had a nebuliser in hospital though, do you have one at home? Wasn't aware you could have them at home)
yes he does need his reliever sometimes, but that doesn't mean we are not ontop of his medical needs.

I stand by what I said. If the asthma is so poorly controlled night time attacks requiring a lot of inhaler (reliever) are necessary, the lad needs referral quite urgently.

Belle you appear to have made this part up, nowhere have I said in this thread that he is having lots of night time attacks and/or that he is using his reliever inhaler a lot.
And is it not obvious we already have an asthma nurse and are under a specialist? Who on earth do you think is prescribing these inhalers and of course the steroids?

Yes, you can have a nebuliser at home. The consultant recommended it and the paed community nurses provided it. The hospital ones were pretty knackered so I bought one.

PM me later if you like about asthma support - off to work now.

Sorry nocapes, this seems to have turned into some misguided (and totally irrelevant) attack on you about astma.

I hope you get your nights sorted and get a bit more rest. Take the helpful stuff from here and ignore the rest.

Good luck!

Some posters are like a dog with a bone!!

Re settling for sleep, the reason you started the thread!

I hope your bouncy children soon learn to self settle but as I am often still awake at 1am I am not the best person to advise you.

One thing that helps me is a relaxation app, I think they do them for children too.
I often fall asleep as the man with the lovely Scottish accent is telling me to relax my arms, my wrists .....

I feel for you, my children were dreadful and my grandchildren too. We are all Night Owls, could stay in bed all day long.

It's like torture for you, I had a bouncy child (still do but yes 13 now ......)

We ended up taking a toy away, only took a couple of nights and we'd cracked it.

We are also have success with the reward chart after numerous previous attempts and variations.

DS got sticker number 7 this morning, and is waking nearer the 6am than 5am. Praise be! It could all go nipples aloft tonight though!

But as I said, this has taken years and years of torture, upset, feeling like a failure and probably just DS being old enough (he'll be 6 in July) to 'get' it.

Be kind to yourself, do what you have to do to get through this phase and tackle it when you feel able to.

Ignore the daft posters on here being twats unhelpful. Xxx

Wow well done Shark sounds like your DS is on a roll

I really do appreciate all the helpful and supportive comments, sorry I haven't acknowledged them all because of the silly derailment of the thread, but I am reading them all and I'm coming up with a plan with all of your help

Really interesting that one poster (sorry can't remember your name) said that their inhaler and steroids gave them trouble sleeping, nobodies ever mentioned this as a possible side effect before - I will be on the lookout for any connection between them in DS

Expect I've cursed it now!

Was last night any better for you?

I'm obviously the only parent who, after having had the piss taken for a while, roars up the stairs bellowing at the little sods to get in those bloody beds before I get there. or God help them

Only had to do it a few times before they worked out that it was better to do as they were told or risk a bollocking.

In fairness to my two, they've always been excellent sleepers and barring the odd incident, have usually gone to bed without any trouble.

Haha Shark noooooo think positive

They were brilliant last night, but the baby was asleep when they went to bed so they were doing lots of stage whispering of "sshhhh the babies sleeeeepinnnngggg!"

MsAdorabelle I scream at mine like a bloody banshee sometimes, clearly I'm just not as scary as you

I am bothered that you think proper advice on use of the asthma rescue inhaler is a silly derailment. Your comments on the inhaler come across as very blithe, and defensive.

It was me who suggested that asthma medication can cause insomnia. At least one other poster did too. Derailing, I suppose.

'I have said this several times now - he does not take the inhaler by himself.'

'Lemon I agree, I think it's important that my child (it's only the 6 year old that has in-halers) can recognise when he needs to take his in-healer and can give it himself.'

You have also contradicted yourself about the inhaler use and what the significance of having it accessible to him means.

'He knows where the blue one is, he can reach it and he knows how to use it himself, as of yet he hasn't ever had to administer it himself but he knows what to do if that situation ever arises which yes I do think is important.'

If you think he might need to use his rescue inhaler on his own at night, then you should get a monitor and prevent this situation. Since the asthma is severe you should have a monitor anyway. Six is too young to have the possibility hanging over him of using the inhaler on his own. It is too much responsibility for himself in a frightening situation, and keeping count of the dosage and timing is very important. When it comes to severe asthma, an adult needs to reassure him that s/he will always be there. At a later age he can be taught to use it on his own at night but at six he is too young.

I am that your asthma nurse has never told you you could have a nebuliser at home. Presumably this nurse is fine with the idea that your DS should have his inhaler where he and maybe his four year old sister can access it? Even severe asthma should be manageable nowadays and if it isn't and if a six year old needs random night time relievers then he needs a referral to a consultant and the op needs a couple of sessions with a specialist asthma nurse. [BeaufortBelle]
Could you shop around for another HCP for the asthma?

If you think your DS might need the nebuliser at home then the asthma is not being adequately controlled by the brown inhaler. If you are nervous enough to think that DS needs to have the inhaler close at hand at night, and you need to go for an overhaul of medications and dosage. Be sure to bring your complete records of all his symptoms and all inhaler use. I agree with Beaufort here.

Nooka, you are not supposed to use the reliever/rescue inhaler to prevent an attack. Using it for chest tightness is correct identification of onset of an attack, if that is the first indication for your DD that an attack is developing, and therefore fine, but if the brown inhaler is adequate then attacks should be minimised.

You are supposed to use your control inhaler(s) for daily maintenance. If the blue inhaler has to be used at night, so frequently that the inhaler is always to hand, then the control inhalers are not working as well as they should be. There is a lot to suggest that the OP is not getting adequate support/correct advice from the asthma nurse.

math you seem to be obsessed with the fact that he uses his inhaler at night and I don't know why
I actually can't remember the last time DS was unwell enough to need his inhaler through the night but you seem to have it in your head that happens on a nightly basis. It doesn't.

You also keep banging on about him feeling anxious about his asthma. He doesn't.
Yea he is aware of where his inhaler is. It doesn't mean that he thinks that I won't give it to him when he needs it. He also knows where the oven is but he doesn't think he has to cook his own dinner

The asthma nurse has never mentioned a nebuliser at home no. He hasn't had to have a nebuliser since he was just turned 4, as we have learned to manage his asthma. Something you are absolutely adamant I'm incapable of doing.

And we are getting fine advice from our nurse thank you (god you even know better than HCP's now ) everyone with asthma should always know where their inhaler is, 6 or 60, this doesn't mean that his preventative one is not working.

NoCapes, you are the person who said that all is well because his inhaler is to hand at night. Why did you include this information?

Why was this important for you to mention in the context of a thread complaining about the fact that you can't just pack the children off to bed and relax?

I actually can't remember the last time DS was unwell enough to need his inhaler through the night
-- then it should not need to be at hand.

You have misstated what I have said several times -- one example: 'you seem to have it in your head that happens on a nightly basis. It doesn't.'

Use of the inhaler at night 'obsesses' me because:
It can cause insomnia;
The four year old runs in and out of DS's room and it is accessible to her too;
DS has the inhaler to hand at night, indicating either you or he is nervous about the possibility of a night time attack;
The presence of the inhaler is supposed to give both you and DS peace of mind - a monitor should be used instead.
(And if peace of mind is important to either you or DS then one or both of you is nervous about nighttime attacks).

There is a difference between 'knowing where your inhaler is' and having it in your room at night.