I'm NOT a Gina Mum, but for those of you who are ......

[susanmt]

Our new HV is HEAVILY into this. It reminded me of fp's posts about her friends coming to stay.
The thing which mums were really questioning at the playgroup today was that children should not be read bedtime stories as it is a 'prop' to help them go to sleep, there should be no singing or rocking or cuddling or stories once you go into the bedroom, just in the cot and 'night night'.
I read the book when my daughter was small then got rid of it, and was given a copy by a friend when my son was born, but managed to dispose of that one too as I don't like the advice/tone of it.
So two questions (I promised the other mums I would do some research and get back to them!!)

1. I this right about bedtimes? Surealy bedtime routines are a good thing?
2. Surely a HV should not be pushing one way of doing things so heavily - I think it is unprofessional and am wondering about complaining. Does anyone agree?

Off to read myself a bedtime story now .....

Any suggestions for pregnancy books? Or from the bfc's, what is a really good breastfeeding book? What about the second Gina Ford book? I was also thinking of suggesting a feeding book like one of the Annabel Karmel ones, just for ideas? Any thoughts?

The most useful book on b/f that I read was called Bestfeeding, still in print I think.
And I found "What to Expect When You're Expecting" v. comprehensive during pregnancy. I was given a copy of Gordon Bourne's "Pregnancy" by a well-meaning friend. I think this book has a role in that it could be suggested by a health professional if, God forbid, the pregnancy was problematic, but I would NOT recommend a "worried well" mum-to-be go anywhere near it, much too scary!

Tiktok - from your point of view (BF counsellor) isn't Tracey Hogg as bad as GF - bf advice wise ?

I think (personnally) that Annabel Karmel is over rated - hence my suggestion of Suzannah Olivier.

Bestfeeding is good and Breast is Best too.

The second and the third GF books have the same approach and lack of evidence base as the first, so I wouldn't have them on my list....

Bestfeeding is good.

hi pupuce

how does susannah olivier differ from annabel karmel? and are her recipes suitable for toddlers as well? why do you think ak is overrated?

sorry for the barrage of questions - i'm just interested. i have found ak useful for providing inspiration and ideas - but impractical in many ways for a working mother, plus i can't imagine adults sitting down to too many of the dishes in the book as she claims!

what i need is a book along the lines of "What to feed your baby and toddler if you and your partner both work full time and you don't want to give them jars or starting eating baby mush yourself"

would be interested in your views as i know you have done a lot of research on baby nutrition.

thanks in advance.

hi pupuce

how does susannah olivier differ from annabel karmel? and are her recipes suitable for toddlers as well? why do you think ak is overrated?

sorry for the barrage of questions - i'm just interested. i have found ak useful for providing inspiration and ideas - but impractical in many ways for a working mother, plus i can't imagine adults sitting down to too many of the dishes in the book as she claims!

what i need is a book along the lines of "What to feed your baby and toddler if you and your partner both work full time and you don't want to give them jars or starting eating baby mush yourself"

would be interested in your views as i know you have done a lot of research on baby nutrition.

thanks in advance.

Hi Bossykate,

Well S.O.'s book is more on nutrition than recipes, the pros and cons, lots on vitamins, sugar, fat, salt, jars, additives, .... that sort of thing. The other half of the book is recipes. I used some of them - I found them more realistic than AK and also they made me use ingredients I would not have otherwise like quinoa and millet or red lentils (which I don't think are talked about in AK's book - I have only 1 of hers).

S.O.'s recipes go from baby to toddler and focus on wonder foods as she calls them which are highly nutritious foods. She suggests menus, etc and includes quite a few vegetarian recipes as well. Taking about the book... I'll have a look later and maybe make something from it for both my kids tomorrow.

Hi Bossykate,

Well S.O.'s book is more on nutrition than recipes, the pros and cons, lots on vitamins, sugar, fat, salt, jars, additives, .... that sort of thing. The other half of the book is recipes. I used some of them - I found them more realistic than AK and also they made me use ingredients I would not have otherwise like quinoa and millet or red lentils (which I don't think are talked about in AK's book - I have only 1 of hers).

S.O.'s recipes go from baby to toddler and focus on wonder foods as she calls them which are highly nutritious foods. She suggests menus, etc and includes quite a few vegetarian recipes as well. Taking about the book... I'll have a look later and maybe make something from it for both my kids tomorrow.

Ooops - like you I am double posting - it seems like the pages are not loading so we do it twice ????

Just thought I would let you know that I had BRILLIANT meeting at the surgery yesterday!! I will post the story at the weekend as I have (more) kidney stones right now and should be in bed, but thought you would like to know it went well. I am now on the patient group! and the HV has been given a written warning - turns out I wasnt the only one who complained!!!!

Re toddler recipe books, I'm a big fan of Lizzie Vann's Organic one (forgotten the title, and lent it to a friend, so can't check, sorry - think it's called 'Baby Organics', like the food range.) I rated it way above the Annabel Karmel ones, I know. But then I'm heavily into organic food anyway, so admit a heavy bias.
Susanmt - wonderful! And good for you for complaining in the first place, too.

OK, the meeting!!
I was ushered in to the practice managers office, given coffe and biccies, and then we got down to it. I found it a bit awkward as the HV was there, but once I got talking I was fine.
The GP asked what was the problem with what the HV had been doing - so I explained the controversy about Gina Ford's methods. I had printed out some stuff from Mumsnet about it, so they could see the variety of opinions (hope this was OK!?!)
I said I had no complaints about the GF book being made available, but that it should be balanced with a wide variety of opinions on childcare methods, ideas, tricks etc. The GP was noddding and smiling and the HV was looking pretty glum. The GP then asked to HV to explain to me why she had been giving out the books - basically she said she thought it was a good guide for everyone and that you didnt have to follow the routines, just take the ideas on board. I explained how hard that might be for someone who wasnt very confident about it. I said there was nothing in the CLBB about things some parents might like or want to do such as co-sleeping - I could see the HV was longing to be critical about this but I thinl she thought the better of it. I also mentioned the concerns some have about her scheduled rather than demand bf.
Then (aargh) I said I didnt think the HVs role was to be prescriptive about what we should do as parents but to help and support us in the things we had chosen to do with our parenting. She said (this is all very rough) that if she saw people making huge mistakes it was her job to help - I said it was only a mistake if the parents were unhappy with it and agina used co-sleeping as anexample - some people think this is 'storing up trouble', for other people it is a way of life and they love it. She then said she really didn't like the idea of co-sleeping - she was trying, I think, to make me look like I didnt know what I was talking about - anf the GP then broke in and said that it wasnt a discussion about any one type of parenting but about the role of the HV. Sensible of him as I was getting a bit uptight about it - although we no longer cosleep we did for the first 4 months, though I never told her that!!!!!
So anyway thGP then asked the HV to leave. He wanted to know what I thought about it without her there, and I explained that other mums as well as me (at the playgroup) were concerned that she wasnt being supportive if we didnt do things her way.
Well, it turns out I wasnt the only one who had compained - there were 5 complaints about her conduct, and the outcome is she has been given a written warning, mainly because of the misuse of funds in the practice. I then supplied him with the list of books you lot had given me and he was very impressed! He said they were looking for someone to talk about parenting issues on the patient group they are setting up to make sure the practice is in touch with the patients and asked me if I would like to be the parenting rep, so of course I said yes!!
Wow! It has been pretty stressful, and I feel a bit bad about getting the HV into so much trouble, but I am really glad I did it now.
Oh, and the GP has assigned me a different HV from a neighbouring practice, as he didnt think it was in anyones interest for me to be this ones client any more. I agreed with that.
There you go then. It's worth complaining. This is just the bare bones of what went on, as I was on painkillers for my kidneys at the time!! But I think it went well!!!

Susanmt, a huge well done! I know from reading the boards that you've been under a bit of stress, and I'm really impressed at how 'together' you've been!

Your argument about being prescriptive and making huge mistakes is absolutely spot-on and I'm so glad the GP took this on board. Will they offer some re-training for this HV as well as a written warning? Do you think she would be prepared to look again at her 'advice' to parents or is she too dyed-in-the-wool to change?

Your new role as Parenting Rep is brilliant, too, and I hope you enjoy it.

Oh well done Susanmt! Interesting to hear how the meeting went, what a great result, I'm really pleased for you

Well done Susanmt! Surgeries and the NHS in general needs more people like you around... your input as parent rep will be invaluable to lots of patients.

So with the discussions about researchers on another thread, is it going to be ok to pick your brains for my meetings?? Dont want to abuse the system, and of course I will have to ask the other mums locally, but the breadth of mumsnet has been great for me!

Pick away here if you think there's anything in my brain worth having

Susanmt, that is a great result, not just for you personally, but for mums everywhere who have been browbeaten or sneered at by their HVs. Well done you, especially with your kidneys and pnd, I could not have been so together in a meeting like that, I am sure. I think you will make a great parents' rep for them, I bet the GP is delighted to have someone on board with an open mind who is also well-informed. Good luck with the new HV. And anything we can all do to help!

Wow, Susan -- i'm so impressed. All the rotten stories I've ever heard about bad HV advice and you actually did something about it. Good for you!!

Thanks for everyone being so nice about what I did! I just couldnt stand more bad advice. The previous HV had told me I would 'never' feed dd as she was too big. It just really hacks me off when I am being told stuff I know is wrong, just as much as when people are giving other folks advice which I know is c**p. I just got it into my head that I wasnt standing for it any longer!
I'd really like to encourage other people to complain - this has made a HUGE difference to us here and you can do it too - mumsnetters unite!

SusanMT you have certainly inspired me not to just sit back and accept things. Although unimpressed by my health visitor I have not had the same troubles you have but have had other medical/health related issues that I feel retrospectively I should have followed up (Ie being discharged from Casualty with no car seat/car/money in winter with an 11 month old DS with no coat/food/nappies and covered in blood with no dressings - it was the fact that they didn't even bother to clean him up/dress his wound that got me) But unlike you I did nothing. So well done.

Susanmt, well done, I wish I had the guts to stand up to people like that. I've only just picked up on this thread (apart from a book recommendation) because I had never even heard of Gina Ford before I came to Mumsnet, Christopher Green was my saviour! I also liked the Richard Ferber sleep book (if he was the one who said it was ok to leave a baby crying as long as necessary if you know that it isn't in danger) I am fortunate that I have a very good HV but I would hate to have a less than helpful one. I think new mums in particular need lots of help and reassurance and perhaps a little guidance but definitely do not need or want to be railroaded into the HVs way of thinking. I'm happy for you to give my POV (for what its worth) on any subject when you go to the meetings.

Fantastic, Susanmt....I wish more mothers would take their complaints about bad support and information from health professionals further.

Well done indeed, Susanmt! I think it takes incredible guts to do this sort of thing and that's great news about the parent representative role. I bet they're really excited about getting someone like you who really knows her onions!