I'm NOT a Gina Mum, but for those of you who are ......

[susanmt]

Our new HV is HEAVILY into this. It reminded me of fp's posts about her friends coming to stay.
The thing which mums were really questioning at the playgroup today was that children should not be read bedtime stories as it is a 'prop' to help them go to sleep, there should be no singing or rocking or cuddling or stories once you go into the bedroom, just in the cot and 'night night'.
I read the book when my daughter was small then got rid of it, and was given a copy by a friend when my son was born, but managed to dispose of that one too as I don't like the advice/tone of it.
So two questions (I promised the other mums I would do some research and get back to them!!)

1. I this right about bedtimes? Surealy bedtime routines are a good thing?
2. Surely a HV should not be pushing one way of doing things so heavily - I think it is unprofessional and am wondering about complaining. Does anyone agree?

Off to read myself a bedtime story now .....

Message withdrawn

GF is very pro-bedtime routine. The stuff about not reading bedtime stories is rubbish, I think she mentions keeping everything very low-key in the bedroom before bed, but that's it.

GF says that its a good idea not to let children actually go to sleep with a bottle/dummy/being rocked but to wake them slightly so that they finally drift off in their cot on their own.

Like the others I agree, GF does not say NO to bedtimes stories !!!!
First of all her routines are MAINLY for under 6 months old and I don't know parents who read bedtime stories to such babies (maybe they do ?).
What GF is suggesting is not to rock a baby to sleep or drive him around to sleep but there is nothing against singing or reading stories (which is for older babies anyway who are usually better sleepers). I read and tell stories to my son every night.
One missconception is that babies should not be cuddled when put to bed.... see page 90 of her book where she says that they should be cuddled but not overstimulated.

On your second point... I agree in principle but what do you say when a HV is equally pushy about their ideas on bottle or breast feeding ? That is VERY common as we see mums here complain about what their HV has said !

But surelyy HV's should be pushy about breast feeding given that it is best for the baby whereas a GF routine may or may not be.

I am talking of HV telling mums that giving a bottle might help them... versus increase breastfeeding !

I was a part-GF mum.

Only used it in the first 6 months, and even then not ridgidly. Still wokrded, though.

Must admit I don't remember anything about bedtime stories being wrong.

Also, re HV and bfeeding. Mine was very pushy.

I had a problem with brestfeeding - I just was not producing enough (1 oz when should have been 3-4 oz after 40 minutes of expressing. One boob produced nothing at all!!!) and my HV at the time kept going on and on about how how I should persevere.

I did, for two weeks, Still no engorgement and no milk, so switched to bottle after which DS was a much happier baby.

Anyway, sorry, I know this was about GF but had to say something about the pushy HV angle!

Susanmt - I'd be complaining about her, but then that's me! I think it must be really hard not to put across your own views and remain impartial BUT as a HV you SHOULD be doing that no matter how much effort you have to put in to change your fixed opinions...
Plus, I can't believe anyone would say that there should be no singing, cuddling, stories etc...surely that is from the dark ages. Get her told!

RE the breast-feeding and HV topic, isn't a happy mum best for the baby? As someone who has never breast-fed I do find the propaganda very annoying. If women want to breast-feed then great, they should have a lot of help and support, but leave the bottle-feeding, and happy to be, alone!
(Sorry, just fielded a v. emotional phone-call from a friend with 4 day old whose been made to feel like s* by HV for stopping breast-feeding).

Well said Angharad. I think that HV and midwives should give a balanced view. Yes, breastfeeding is best, but formula is not going to kill your baby. I was made to feel like a total failure in hospital about not bf, my son had no idea whatsoever about how to latch on, no-one around to help - it was my worst nightmare. Until, 48 hours after my baby had been born, and not had a single drop of milk, an older midwife came in and 'took me in hand', brought me a bottle and instantly the world seemed a better place to me

I can't see anything wrong with bedtime stories. I always had them read to me and it was a great way to finish a day. I think the most important thing is a happy bedtime and a baby / child that goes to sleep happy and not upset.

I am going to read my dd bedtime stories in the near future.

I just had a quick look as Im a Gina fan. She doesnt say don't read or cuddle before bed, she suggests leaving enough time to have a story and a cuddle before your baby is too tired. She also suggests a rhyme or storytape to help children get themselves off to sleep.

As a working mum that is one of the nicest times for me - getting snuggled up with ds for a story before bed.

I am surprised by HVs attitude. Surely it is her role to be supportive with whatever method you decide to use. She seems to have rather limited views.

It's a shame that very pushy HVs and midwives don't have the intelligence to work out that by bullying women or trying to, this very often has completely the opposite effect. My midwife only mentioned feeding twice during my whole pregnancy last year, the first time at my booking appt.,at the suggestion of breast feeding I sort of wrinkled my nose and looked distinctly unkeen! Nothing else was said until I was about 36 weeks when she casually mentioned whether I had thought anymore about how I was going to feed my baby. At this point, because no-one had put pressure on me or hassled me, I had a change of heart and decided to give breast feeding a go. I told her this and she suggested that I get in a small supply of formula just in case as a back up. It wasn't until after my dd was born and I was in hospital that I noticed her name on some bumph that was handed out - it turns out that she is actually the NCT breast feeding counsellor for my area. I was really impressed with her approach and the result of her laid back attitude resulted in me breast feeding and taking to it like a duck to water. On the other hand, one of my good friends who lives about 20 miles away and looked after by another midwife, was "bullied" and hassled from day one about how she really must breast feed, the pressure never stopped and at one of her parentcraft classes she made everyone in the class put up their hands who was going to breast feed and then a show of hands for the bottle feeders. She then went on to ridicule my friend and one other poor girl in front of the rest of the class.

melly,

What you described at your friends antenatal class is awful and is unacceptable. What is also unacceptable is an NCT counsellor ( or HV /MW) advising women to have formula available 'just in case'. Many studies have shown that women then get the message that it is quite likely that they will not have enough milk to feed their babies ang at the first problem they encounter turn to the bottle. Before they know it they do have milk producing problems because of early formula supplementation and end up bottle feeding when they hadn't planned to. Over 95% of women are capable of breastfeeding - it is not easy to be established for everyone.

All women should be informed of the health benefits of breastfeeding when pregnant in order to make an informed choice. There are risks associated with bottle feeding regarding increased asthma, eczema, diabetis, ear infections, gastroenteritis - the list goes on. It is the same with smoking - you must give people information about the risks.

If a woman who has been given all the information and chooses to bottle feed then that is fine and her INFORMED choice should be respected. She will have various reasons for making that choice. I discussed this very issue with a bottle feeding friend of mine and she said that she knew breastfeeding was the ideal way to feed a baby but there was no way she was doing it because the thought disgusted her.

IME there are 2 categories of breast feeding women - those that truly want to do it and those who don't but expect to be critised by professionals if they don't so therefore start out breastfeeding without conviction.

As a midwife I will do anything I can to support a woman who has chosen to breastfeed. I do not know what category of breastfeeder that woman is in. Some women when they feed are surprised how much they like it and are fortunate if their baby takes to it 'like a duck to water'.
Other women need a lot of support and help. This can be very time onsuming but ultimately very rewarding when the problem is cracked ( hopefully not the nipple!) and mum and baby are successfully breastfeeding. This support can be confused with not ALLOWING a mother to bottle feed because in order to successfully feed, it is better not to resort to formula in the first instance ( there are occasions when it is necessary but it is not usually required).

When a woman is really honest and says 'I hate breast feeding' or simply 'I don't want to breastfeed' then I am supportive of her choice. There is nothing worse ( I am sure Leese would agree ) than spending hours helping a woman to breastfeed when you know she doesn't want to do it and will bottle feed as soon as she goes home.

The point that I am trying to make is that women are not being bullied to breastfeed. They are being given the information to make a choice. They may decide that despite the information received breastfeeding is not for them. The health professionals in the main are happy to hear those words. It means that we do not feel guilty for not having done enough.

Babyfriendly accredited hospitals do not ask women their intention to feed prior to delivery. The benefits of breastfeeding are discussed antenatally and after delivery women are encouraged to have their babies skin-to-skin. If the baby is rooting then the woman is offered assistance to breast feed. Very often women say they would like to try it even if they had already thought they would bottlefeed. They are often surprised that they actually like it. The women who are definate bottle feeders just say they planned to bottle feed which is absolutely fine and they are asked which formula brand they would like.

A rather log winded post but I am passionate about the subject and know, that as a midwife, I encourage breastfeeding and never bully anyone.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Mears's objection to women being to have formula available 'just in case'. Had I been given that advice, that mixed feeding was an option rather than the all-or-nothing doctrine I received before and after my son was born, my experience of the first few weeks of motherhood might have been much more positive.

Well I went to all the ante-natal classes and appointments, read the books and magazines, visited the websites - amd when my son was born 8 months ago I had every intention of breastfeeding him - after all it was best for him, and to do anything else would be depriving him of the best start to life, wouldn't it? Unfortunately although he had no problem latching on I simply wasn't producing as much milk as he wanted. Well everyone kept saying, just persevere and it'll sort itself out. So for three weeks I was feeding virtually non-stop, frequently for 6 hours at a time, and with never more than half an hour between feeds. As you can imagine the result was sore nipples, an exhausted mum, and a tired but still hungry baby.

Eventually when I was so exhausted that I could do nothing more and fell asleep anyway, my husband without me knowing gave him a bottle. And guess what, not only did my baby sleep afterwards, but I did. And although I went ballistic at my husband at the time, beleiving that he'd ruined any chance of continuing to breastfeed, and that our son would be disadvantaged for the rest of his life because of it (yes, that was the message I'd been getting from the midwives and HV's) that 6 hour break was all that was needed to allow my milk to build up enough for the next feed to actually produce enough without the many-hour marathons we'd had before. Result happier baby and happier mum.

Was three weeks of being constantly hungry and losing weight really the best start in life for him? Was having a mum who was so stressed by the sense of failure, and so determined not to give up on breastfeeding, that she was constantly in tears really the best start in life for him? As it is although he's a happy, healthy child at the moment he's never really caught up the weight he should have gained in those first few weeks (slipping from 91st centile to 25th), and who knows what the long term effects of that might be?

I suppose the moral of the story is that the world isn't black and white, but shades of grey. Just one bottle a day from then on was all it took to be able to continue breastfeeding until my son was 6 months old. Is that such a a heinous crime? Yet I was made to feel so guilty about it that I didn't dare to admit to the Health Visitors that we'd let him have that one bottle for fear of the castigation that would follow. (By the way all but one of the breastfeeding mothers I knew had given up well before I eventually did.) Without that one bottle I would undoubtedly have eventually been forced from pure desperation to switch entirely, yet in the end it was giving a bottle which enabled me to carry on breastfeeding.

Next time around I'd have no hesitation in introducing a single bottle at bedtime earlier, to ensure that those early weeks don't become a living nightmare again. Will I admit to doing so? No probably not - the bottles will probably stay hidden in the cupboard and only extracted when no critical judgmental eyes might spot them. But I can't help wondering, how many other people, who to the eyes of the world are exclusively breastfeeding are in reality supplementing?

Well said, GillW. I too had every intention of breastfeeding my dd. I ended up with an emergency caesarean, very little help with getting her latched on in hospital and left hospital after 4 days with cracked, bleeding nipples, a monstrously hungry baby, and tears (mine!) every feed due to pain and guilt at wishing I could just have a break from feeding for a few hours. I was absolutely determined to carry on, used a breast pump to try & get a break while dh gave dd EBM in a bottle (which incidently didn't make her less interested in the breast, which is what our antenatal class drilled into us). Doing that saved my breastfeeding, and I continued to b-feed exclusively for 3 months, when impending return to work meant I started mix feeding. Now at 6 months, dd has bf morn & night & 2 bottles formula in the day, and has never been happier. Mix feeding CAN work, and HV's, IMO, don't emphasise this enough. Ok, I know it's a bit different in the early days before proper milk comes in, but my friend with ds same age as my dd had experience similar to yours, GillW (constant feeding, not enough milk) and eventually, though extremely reluctantly, gave a bottle of formula and he slept for 8 hours! She never looked back after that, and both she & her ds are much happier mix feeding. Incidentally, her NCT person told her to 'keep it quiet' that she really didn't have enough milk, because they want to be able to say that it is sooooo rare for this to be the case. Not very fair on anyone who may find themselves in friend's situation.

Sorry to go on, but I do feel strongly about this. By bullying mothers to b-feed and under no circumstances give a bottle as well, health professionals can end up driving people away from b-feeding altogether.

elwar, totally agree. When my son was born 3 years ago I was 100% positive that breast was best and I was going to perservere as long as possible. My Christmas day, when my ds was 2 months old was spent in my parents bedroom feeding the whole of the time. My son seemed so hungry all the time it really got me down. After six months of hell I gave in.
My dd was born 2 years ago and I decided to be much more relaxed. No one (apart from a friend) had mentioned I could mix breast with formula. I used to give my dd formula when out and at bed time to help her sleep through easier. I had a much more relaxed time. My milk never dried up until I completely stopped I even managed to go back to work and continue with ONE breast feed at night when I got home and my dd had formula the rest of the time. To this day I don't understand why we aren't told it's ok to mix the feeds?

To add some support for GillW and Elwar, I too (or rather DS) suffered from the black/white view of breast vs bottle. Being determined to breast feed him (and being constantly told 'don't worry, baby won't starve himself' created a frankly dangerous situation for him in the first week, where he suffered 25% weight loss, as he just wasn't feeding properly.

Yes, that is mostly my fault for not trusting my instincts (which were telling me he wasn't happy) and investigating alternative ways of feeding him. The fact that we were not seen by the same midwife twice during the first week also didn't help.

But in an ideal world, one of the myriad midwifes that I spoke to in that week would have mentioned that cup or limited bottle feeding would not necessarily spell the end of breastfeeding, rather than applauding my (idiotic) persistence.

In the end, of course, we did get breastfeeding established, but only after a traumatic period with DS in intensive care and me in bits.

So, what's my conclusion here? I completely support people's right to feed their baby in whatever way they believe is best. However, I'm surprised (to put it mildly) that mixed/supplementary feeding is not more commonly talked about in antenatal care as a real possibility, rather than only mentioned as an after-the-fact measure to pick up the pieces in an emergency.

Mears/Tiktok/all you other child health professionals, is there a reason for this? I presume the reason is that there is a danger of 'nipple confusion' but there seems to be plenty of anecdotal evidence that this is not a problem for many babies.

Sorry to hijack the thread, folks, but it's an interesting question, IMO!

It strikes me how many women tell the story of hiding the bottle from the HV's. Like so many others I had the intention of breastfeeding, but had to swap to mixed feeding as the sluglet had been hospitalised for a while after birth. I just never established a good supply, its hard to do when your child is in an incubator.

I tried, lord knows how I tried. When we finally got home I went back to exclusive breastfeding, and the sluglet promptly lost all the weight she had gained. We got into that cycle of constant feeding and crying (me as well as her). And all this time the midwives and HV's were insisting that it would sort itself out. It never did. My mother suggested I take up mixed feeding and I never looked back. I've successfully breastfed her until she grew teeth. (ouch)

I'm glad I went with my instincts. If I hadn't mix fed I would have given up bf altogether. I have a friend in Ireland with a daughter the same age as the sluglet. She gave up bf after 2 weeks and was so shocked when I told her what I was doing. That soultion had simply never been presented to her. In the end at least my baby got the benefit of bf for as long as possible.

I wonder if this situation isn't more common than is admitted. I was so sick of being patronised by the health professionals that I simply stopped discussing anything with them.

Absolutely agree - I 'mix fed' very happily for eight months after a difficult start breast feeding - just didn't bother telling health professionals - or one or two 'b/f is the ONLY thing to do' type friends!

Can't think why it is isn't encouraged more - also means you can get a bit of time out for yourself for those of us who didn't get on with expressing. I can still remember sobbing away with a horrendous expressing machine, about 1 oz appearing in half an hour - DH & mother begging me to use the odd bottle - thank goodness I took their advice!

Lindy - been there with the breast pump. Such a let-down (no pun intended) when you only have a thimblefull of milk to show for so much hard work

The sad thing is, though, that with all these positive stories I know a lot of people where 'the occasional bottle# became exclusive bottle feeding very quickly!!
And to go back to the original theme of the thread, after I discovered yesterday that the HV is giving away copies of the CLBB bought with the HV budget I have put in a formal written complaint. Looks like I'm turning into Lizzer! Hooray!

I understand the reasoning behind exclusive breastfeeding providing the optimum benefits for the baby and at 36 wks pg for the second time have an ideal image of being able to do this and only bottlefeeding expressed breastmilk.

However I experienced the usual round of b/feeding problems with DS1 - cracked nipples, mastitis, weight loss (DS not me unfortunately ). My HV at around five weeks actually suggested I give him one bottle of formula a day, she told this is what she did and although it was frowned upon it saved her from giving up b/feeding, she presented me with the facts and left the decision to me. I decided to take her advice and give the bottle a day which at the time stopped me from giving up, however when I told her that this was what we were doing she asked me not to tell another HV from the same clinic who took the Breastfeeding Support Group I was attending. I felt awful having the lie to this HV when she commented on DS' good weight gain and the fact that we were both much happier.

The next piece of advice I received from my HV re the mixed feeding is one I wish I had not listened to as it put the nail in the coffin so to speak as far as my b/feeding went. When DS was around 12 weeks she suggested that for his one bottle a day we changed his milk to the milk for hungrier babies and basically DS found this far more satisfying than the milk I was producing, he just started messing about and chomping at me (although in hindsight think this was teething) but always seemed alot happier when a bottle was produced, our b/feeding days were over at about 16 weeks . This time round if my ideal of completely b/feeding doesn't go to plan I would not be against mixed feeding (if it helps you keep going then great) but would be very wary of any recommendations to change to the milk for hungrier babies.

Susanmt, way to go! Now, if the HV were to produce an annotated list of about six different types of parenting manual, and invite the mums to choose which they think they'd find most useful, that might be a better use of the budget. Let us know what reply you get. And, like you, I know a lot of mums whose occasional bottle did indeed turn into full-time bottle-feeding sooner than they anticipated.
I received very mixed messages from hospital and community midwives when getting b/f established in difficult circumstances, and personally I found the ones like Mears, who didn't see the need for a "back-up" tin of formula, much more supportive and reassuring. That is what I wanted to hear at the time.
I guess it is all down to the sensitivity of the midwife or HV in dealing with the individual mum and I wish all of them were as understanding as Mears clearly is.

And I thought all HV were against Gina Ford.... well you learn a new one every day