smacking???

[Suzy4321]

Hi , I'm just curious what's people's views on smacking.

Before anyone gets on their soap box I literally mean a hand tap! Not beating or any force.

I remember when I was young I was smacked only when really playing up as a last resort. It never damaged me in any way.

Again only smack ( light hand tap) not legs and never face.

Like I say just curious

It's never acceptable in my opinion. As Bertie has pointed out, there are many alternatives a patient parent can use.

For the argument "Well it didn't do me any harm" the word "me" is absolutely key. It may not have done "you" any harm but "you" are not "your" child. They are an individual in their own right, who deserve not to be smacked/hit and may react completely differently to you. They may be terrified, grow resentful, be aggressive themselves (after all, mummy/daddy hit so...), become withdrawn.

And there's a world of difference between smacking a child to grabbing them out of danger's way. And too much will dilute the desired affect anyway.

Sigh. It really saddens me this debate.

No hand tap, no hitting, no anything.

Parents need to parent without aggression, bullying or intimidation. 'Never did me any harm' makes me cringe.

I loathe and detest the idea of hitting children, it is crap parenting and I am thankful that we don't mix with people like this. I would like it to be illegal.

seeyou do you know why your parents didn't remove the razor blades from where you could get at them? If my child did that once then I would keep them in a locked drawer or similar.

Do you remember if you stopped because you were afraid of being hit again, or because you understood why it was wrong?

CultureSucksDownWords

Mum put them in top of the bathroom cabinet, I got them.
She then hid them in her room, unknowing i had stashed half under my bed.

She said as she smacked my legs,
"If you ever do anything like this again I'll smack you twice"
I didn't want smacking again.

My Mum is quite laid back really, she only ever smacked whe she felt all other options had been exhausted, or thats how I remember it.

Anywho, that nothing to do with the debate, I was more curious what happens when all avenues are exhausted.
If your faced with a child refusing to behave no matter what you do.

But were all the alternatives exhausted? How could she be sure that smacking, and the threat of more would work? I would want to get to the bottom of your actions, because if not razors then what? A nail gun?

As a rule in general dont do it myself but wouldnt judge anyone else smacking their child.

It's an interesting argument. It seems like the typical thing. When all avenues are exhausted then people turn to physical discipline. But as said, I live in a country where it is illegal. So either people do it anyway and hope that the authorities don't find out, or they have other options as their hmm, well, I hoped I wouldn't have to do this but needs must. I don't think we've had any incidents which reached that point, so I don't know, honestly, what my "2015" version of the "ultimate punishment" would be. I guess taking away something which is a total favourite which I'd never normally consider taking away, like all computer games or something like that. If I was convinced that a big punishment would be the thing to take effect.

TBH I would not have tried pleading or bribing for razor blades. I would have been extremely shocked in the first instance and wanted to know why, hidden them all and then generally had talks about whatever it was - pranks gone wrong, hurting people, bleeding being serious, potentially making people ill etc. Sibling rivalry is totally out of my experience, I admit. And I remember having some views as a child which would make me go now - children just don't develop empathy in the same way that adults have it until much later.

What occurs to me as a totally impassionate, removed from the situation idea is just treating it totally matter of factly and getting everyone in the family to remember to check things before they put their hands in without looking, so that the "joke" didn't work and gained no attention, hopefully becoming boring, but I'm not sure that I'd be able to do that in the actual situation.

Bertie, one of my friends grew up in DE and her dad smacked her brother over him not believing her when she was trying to help him with his English.

It was a brilliant anecdote, and her shock spelled out the impact of the law.

He didn't believe something like no genders for definite articles or something along those lines.

I was smacked like you. It stayed with me and damaged the relationship with my parents.

If you were a carer to an adult who did something "naughty" or "dangerous" would you hit them?

Sometimes children do naughty or dangerous things and the adult smacks because they are angry or frightened. I think the adult should be modelling to the child how to deal with these kind of feelings of frustration because it's an inevitable part of life and your child will not do well at school smacking out.

I think that hitting back is fair game though. Nobody should tolerate being hit on purpose.

If you were a carer to an adult who did something "naughty" or "dangerous" would you hit them? - Imo this is a stupid comparison. No I wouldnt hit them. neither would i put them on the naughty step, confiscate their stuff or ground them etc , as I think this would be considered equally demeaning (for the adult). Does that make all these alternatives unsuitable for small children since I wouldnt carry them out on an adult?

I don't use time out or similar. However, you're comparing apples and oranges. Time out and removal of items and privileges do have a mirror in adult consequences. Loss of liberty, fines, monetary and social sanctions are all ingrained in our culture as legal and correct consequences of various misdemeanours. I can certainly see the logic even if I don't do it myself. Doesn't detract from the question of whether age, maturity or ability has a bearing on whether we smack them. Ultimately, it does not. Hitting another person as a means to control them or satiate your own disquiet is never acceptable.

I know some parents who have used every single one of Bertie's list. And still never worked out what the core problem - cause was. Neither have the professionals worked out what to do.

Not suggesting that smacking is the Answer. It isn't. Smacking doesn't work either.

But I'm just saying that Bertie's list is fab for most children. Most. Not all. For many it's too simplistic.
Like another poster said, there is no magic wand, else someone would have made millions!

It's a list of suggestions, and not complete either. I wasn't making a comprehensive plan for how to solve all child discipline problems. Sometimes you just have to wait for them to grow out of things. Sometimes it's a genuine personality issue. Sometimes there are developmental issues or disabilities. We don't even know about all of the different disorders and disabilities which exist yet, and those we do know about, we don't know that much about. Certainly if parents have been through several discipline methods and been consistent with all and "nothing is working" it's a sign that something isn't quite right.

I'm still amazed you can say it's simplistic, though. Smacking is simple. Pure reward and punishment schemes (whether you use smacking or not) are simple. That's the entire point of them, and also why they don't always work. I think most parents, at least in British culture, use a mixture of rewards, punishments and other kinds of behaviour management. Each of the suggestions on the third list, and most of the suggestions on the second list, could have an entire article written about how to use them, situations they might be useful and how they can be adapted for different ages/stages/whatever. There's no quick fix, as you know. I don't think I said that any of them were a quick fix. Most things on the third list are longer term and won't immediately solve a problem. I believe that in the US where smacking is much more common there was a study done which showed that the only positive of smacking is that it leads to immediate compliance. I don't know of any other discipline tool which does achieve this in quite the same way, so perhaps if people are looking for that then that's why they prefer smacking because it does seem to be the one thing which does that. I just think it's a bit of an irrelevant and outmoded goal. Immediate compliance is no good when they are in a situation without authority figure present and they have to think for themselves, and ultimately if a behaviour issue goes away then great, something taking time isn't as much of an issue especially if it means it becomes more ingrained and/or is less traumatic. Obviously that means in some situations you need to enforce damage control in the interim. It's all work - it's not a simple thing.

Ultimately teaching children how to behave is partly communication, partly relationship and partly the child's ability and will. So we can never be 100% in control of it. Most of the time if you can crack the first two, which isn't always easy in the first place, but if you can get it right most of the time the last one falls into place, but if your child isn't neurotypical or you're just unlucky enough to have a total personality clash, the third one won't and then it doesn't matter if your communication is great and your relationship is good, you'll still have problems you can't solve.

BTW, for kids who don't fit the mould I think Dr. Greene's site, and books, are bloody excellent.

www.livesinthebalance.org/

Wow very strong views on here..

Personally I do not smack my children. I wouldn't ever smack my children. There are many ways to communicate with your child effectively without resorting to physical chastisement.

Yes children push boundaries and of course mine can drive me up the wall at times but Iv found things far more effective.

For instance my eldest who's 5.5 is quite a handful and very loud and a strong character. He's got quite a temper and his own strong opinions on what he should or should not be allowed to do. Some days I break a sweat lol but I don't hit/smack/tap at all. I raise my tone in my voice to attract his attention or if he's beyond that point I do not acknowledge the behaviour.

I also work with abused/neglected children and I don't even think about resorting to physical contact in a negative response to a behaviour. 1. I simply don't think of it and 2. I'd lose my job and be prosecuted of course.

For me the way in which I communicate with children at work where I am able to speak calmly, give clear, firm but fair boundaries, use a planned ignore method, quiet time and a debrief with them I'd see no reason to go home and physically chastise my own children that I have a bond and real love with. I can do it at work with children I have no real emotional connection to (as such although developing connections on an emotional level are often unavoidable) so why not use the same strategies at home with my own children.

Basically by practicing these exercises at work I am able to communicate with my children at home on a calm and respectful level where my children can be treated as an equal to myself.

I do think also by even tapping your child is still showing them it's acceptable to lay your hands or hurt another person if they are making you cross or upset. I know you said only tapping which to you may appear insignificant but to the child may be quite disturbing and perceived as painful too.

Many people agree a gentle tap is appropriate physically but what it may do to your child's still developing mind may cause trauma.

Yes trauma may have some of you thinking what? A tap on the hand is traumatic??

Let me give you an example and this is one of many mind you..

I little girl of 3 was placed in our care as her mum was to unwell to care for her. The family is not suitable to maintain the child's welfare either so at the moment the little darling is in between placements.

There were no signs of what people see as 'abuse' for instance bruising, broken bones or cuts ect.. However this child was smacked on her hands when naughty. The mum used justification such as; she wouldn't come away from the oven so I tapped her hands, she smacked me so I tapped her hand, she through a toy in temper so I tapped her hand ect..

Things like that, now a lot of people do this as they fear with the oven that their child could burn themselves. Understandable response to parents who were in fear of their child's safety however id personally remove the child repeatedly away and with a firm tone express no, this is hot, you must not touch and then use an immediate form of distraction away from the oven. However if the child is screaming and having a tantrum then create a safe distance between the danger and the child and continue that distance until the child gives in or learns they will not win as such. This could take a while lol but persistence is the key.

They will eventually calm down and move forward. It's up to us as adults to provide the best and safe knowledge to our children who do not know any better.

Anyway the point to the story is that the child obviously does "naughty things" and requires being told and given explanations of why not. This little lady is a very strong character but will still push those boundaries like any child or even an adult. So when she does certain things and has these impulses and you begin to verbally intervene she immediately holds her hands behind her back and crys no no, not hurt. She will hide her hands and runs away and often urinates herself. Also she has attempted to eat her own hands. Her reasons are that if she has no hands no one can hurt them.

Bearing in mind this child went under intense examinations and no evidence was found that she had encountered over powering physical chastisement.

Bruising on the skin can go away in a week but bruising of the tissues and bones can last a hell of a lot longer. Indicating this child may have had smacked hands but not at an inappropriate level. Confirming also what mum said "I only tap".

So a child that appears to have had Taps on the hands may not cause physical marks but can have a mental impact. This child's care plan states she has trauma induced behaviours due to physical chastisement.

Continue to bear in mind she under went intense investigation by an entire peds team. Doctors, phycologists, play professionals, blood tests, X Ray's, scans ect.. No evidence was found that she was 'abused' but it was found she had personally been traumatised by "painful hands when mummy was cross" which gave probable cause to investigate under mental trauma. Weather mum knew it or not she was abusing her child by inflicting pain and brushing off the child's reactions to eat her own flesh and cry and hide her hands when she was being told off.

Although it may seem appropriate to an adult/parent, to the child it was a nightmare and caused the child to now be mentally unwell and in fear. Even little Taps really affected her little mind.

This is not the case to every child ever smacked however it was to this child and could happen to any child if that's how it personally affects them.

Also another child who was smacked in many areas (but I won't go into that as its not relevant) but talking of being smacked on the hand.. Dad said it was necessary to tap her hand as she was naughty but when he tapped/smacked her he dislocated her wrist. He expressed he wanted to teach her that her behaviour was wrong, smacked her and the child tried to pull their hand away and when he tapped/smacked her it popped out and she started screaming. Again no evidence was found that the smack/tap was over powering so it just goes to show that it can happen even when it's a "gentle/little tap" They only have little wrists and little joints and muscles ect..

So a couple of examples of the mental and physical impact a little tap can do to a child.

I'm not saying this will happen but it could and if you choose to do it you need to think about the impact first.

My boss describes smacking a child as lazy parenting.

A quick bit of advice also, I work very closely with social workers and you wouldn't believe what seems so insignificant to us is actually massive in the eyes of the law. We have discussed many of times where she's had to investigate parents for things and the dangers of patents behaviours/choices to their children.

A child who went to nursery, had 100% attendance, was clean, fed well, clothed well, advanced, parents had a great rapport with the nursery, happy child, fully updated with immunisations, doctors, dentist ect. She went to nursery and said in a general conversation I must not touch scissors because mummy will smack me won't she.

The nursery had a duty of care to phone the social services and inform them of this disclosure.

Social services intervened and whilst they were investigating placed the child with the grand mother, mum and dad were allowed no contact, the child under went investigation by the peds team. Not just physically but was investigated for ALL aspects of abuse as this is the procedure to any disclosure. The child had an intimate examination. She was kept by her grandmother for 12 weeks during the investigation, the child had to have tests, play sessions with a phycologist and also all the child's welfare needs needed confirming by all involved in the child's care which took the time to correspond with doctors and health visitor ect.

Mum and dad were given the all clear and they were happy for the child to return but mum still had to attend a few parenting classes to learn appropriate ways to discipline/communicate with the child ect. Social services/family workers stayed involved for "support/observation" for a further 10 weeks. Mum admitted straight away to smacking her and expressed it was on her arm and only gently as she had the scissors but regardless of the reasoning the social services followed policy and procedure to ensure the child was at no risk of harm in the home.

When you think if it like that is it worth giving your child a tap in the first place? The mum was destroyed she had her little girl taken for even a day let alone 12 weeks, she had a breakdown as you can imagine when she turned up at nursery to fetch her daughter but was told she couldn't take her.

Scary stuff.. Over all I'd say look at all avenues of communication with your child and develop strategies that work to effectively parent her.

Always talk, explain, praise, cuddle and play.

It doesn't have to be negative, a lot of positives can come from teaching your children in rational and loving ways regardless of their behaviour. Not physical chastisement. Regardless of low insignificant you feel the tap was/is.

You will parent your own way, please don't think I'm going on at you I'm just sharing some things with you. It's up to you what you do with all advice on here. There are some great comments to your thread.

I hope you work out what's best lovey and continue to be a positive role model in your child's life.

I'd also like to add that I think it's great you posted on his asking for guidance/opinions ect, it shows your clearly interested in the best way to be a parent and to gain advice from other people in order to do what's right with your child and how to handle particular behaviours.

Many people say they are not affected by being smacked as a child and that's no doubt true to but we are all different and are all affected differently by our surroundings. I have friends who said a snack never hurt them ect which is great, they are not apposed to the smacking idea. I research their opinion to. I will say though I was never smacked as a child so I have no idea what it was like, although my nan gave me a harsh slap once and to this day even though it sounds silly and I'm an adult and my nan is my best friend I still look back and resent her for it to be honest. I didn't like it then and still don't like the memory now.

Your child may not be bothered or ever affected but then again she may be. The next steps are up to you.

Good luck with your choices Hun I hope you will consider not using physical chastisement as a form of parenting.

Xx

He/she sorry dont know if you have a boy or girl xx

Thanks people for your views I do find it interesting and helpful listening to different views and parenting techniques

Georgia that post is way too long, if you want people to read what you have to say you really need to be more concise.

The bottom line for me is why would someone reason that it is okay to physically strike a child but not an adult. Would it be acceptable for your DH to hit you if you did something he wasn't pleased about? Why not?

My mum was an habitual smacker, all the way through my childhood and into adulthood. Even after I'd left home I'd get a slap across the head for mild cheek or bad language. She'd been hit as a child and saw it as her right and the best thing a parent could do for their children.

She always reeled off the 'it never did me any harm' thing. No mention of her brothers who grew up to be wife-beaters, or her uncontrollable temper

Am I alone on having being smacked a few times when I was younger, and it's had zero effect on me. Zero. I had a wonderfully happy childhood. I remember a few snacks like a remember random other stuff from my childhood. Period

Georgia that post is prohibitively long

I had a horribly abusive start to my life thanks to my biological father. I was beaten senseless from as early as I can remember. Up until I was 5, I can't remember a day where I didn't have a bruise or a cut, or couldn't sit down. But then the bastard left! yay!
But even after the abuse, my mum would still give us the odd tap on the bum if we had already been told off and continued with whatever she had told us to stop doing...and there's no way I'm emotionally damaged by that, nor am I a violent thug.
I don't think real "smacking" is ever ok....I lived in fear of that for the first five years of my life. But a telling off for genuine naughtiness and a tap of the bum/hand? Hardly going to do any harm IMO. If it doesn't leave a mark, or cause a lot of pain then I don't think it's anyone else's business how people discipline their own children

I will accept that I'm probably biased in my view of being very anti smacking.

I was "smacked" as a child, and what that really means is I was beaten with belts/wooden spoons etc. but my parents maintain this was "smacking" and therefore acceptable.