I have just tipped my 3yo Dd1's supper over her head.

[Orchardbeck]

Not one of my finest moments, I have to say. I'm certainly not proud of the fact. She refused to eat it so I calmly tipped it over her head, gravy, the lot.

Dd1 has been refusing to eat meals for some time, I know it is a control issue as we are having other problems (tantrums, ignoring etc etc). I also have Dd2 who is 9 months and eating well (same meals just mashed or chopped well). She just sits there and either makes cheeky comments or shouts over me. I am at the end of my tether.

I make meals that I know Dd1 loves - she was previously an adventurous eater but now just picks and takes hours to finish a meal, and only with coaxing and threats of no pudding etc.

Tonight was sausage casserole, made with home raised pork and vegetables out of the garden, so not only do I feel bad about doing this, it was particularly painful to see it go to waste like that (DH's face was a picture, but he backed me up whether he agreed with it or not , bless him).

She has now been showered and sent to bed with nothing more to eat. She is very eloquent for her age (3 1/4 yo) and has been from age 1, she used to be so well behaved and a joy to have around.

Obviously I was worried about her reaction to dd2, but she loves her to pieces. She just takes other people off to one side to get their full attention - it can be overwhelming for them sometimes.

I know she is rebelling because I have to dedicate attention to her younger sister, plus my OH is a farmer and works all hours so it's just me looking after them. She goes to pre school 2 mornings per week.

What can I do? Is it a phase? Have I crossed a massive line?

Speaking from experiences as both child and adult, having your dinner poured over your head - or any kind of food or drink thrown over you when you least expect it - is the most humiliating experience ever.

There's every chance your 'intelligent and eloquent' almost four year old will remember this incident.

Better to have thrown it on the floor in anger. But your action was calculated and calm...

I'm not in Team Don't Offend The OP. OP needs words with herself - and then her husband for supporting her in her action

You need to explain and apologise to your child. Because I still remember this happening to me as a child and amongst other incidents, my relationship with my mother suffered for it.

And for everyone saying it's not abuse

IT IS ABUSE

At 3 years old you are ment to protected and loved by your parents

They are your safe zone , and a parent pouring your dinner over your head at age 3 is not a nice person

Abuse? For the love of god some of you need to see what abuse actually looks like, then maybe you'd stop screaming abuse at the drop of a hat. It was a cold plate of food tipped over a 3 year old, something said child is just as likely to have done themselves.

It's not the ideal way of dealing with an annoying 3 year old, but it's not the end of the world either.

The OP was struggling before, I am sure the bile on here is just what she needed

I'm sure the ex child protection social worker who posted before saying this was abusive had sadly seen lots of abuse.

FullySwidon as an adult just said she had this done to her and felt it was abuse , humaliting

It is abuse ...emotional abuse

Having your dinner poured over your head when you are 3

If you think that is ok you should have children

Many people deal with the terrible three year old stages but we don't tip/pour their dinner on to their head

I could cry at the thought of a wee 3 year old having dinner poured over her head then sent to bed with no dinner
Wonder whats going through her wee mind tonight.

Even more mind boggling is the fact the ops husband thought it was acceptable.

I think its the feeling of pre meditation that makes it worse. Had the op picked the plate up and flung it in the bin I could understand that but to calmly pour it over a little childs head just beggars belief

No holds barred about my opinion on this

The OP likes her new daughter more which her older daughter will pick up on

I think the best outcome is that the OP sits down and realises that that she has 2 children both of whom deserve love

It was a moment of abuse, whether it becomes an abusive household is entirely in OP's remit.

I was so ashamed at what I did to my child in my moment of being abusive, that I ensured it never ever happened again. I did this by seeking medical help, looking at the situation and how I got to where I did, then never allowing myself to return to that place, by going on parenting courses to learn how to deal with difficult situations in a better way and by trying really blooming hard to never ever let myself lose control ever again. I failed my child that day, and I hope that I can be strong enough now that I never do that again. I never tried to excuse it to him, I told him I was very wrong to do it, and that I would never ever do it again. I intend to keep that promise, and I will accept any anger DS has in future for that action because I deserve it.

This is a point in your life OP where your actions are now very important, how you move away from this is vital, how you learn from it, and how you get the support to never lose control like that ever again. I know it's hard to hear the word abuse, and you want to defend it, or explain it, but it wasn't okay, if you can accept that and do something about it, then you may find peace with yourself for what you did. If you try to explain it or excuse it, you might find yourself here again, and I don't think that's guilt I could live with, I don't think you do either. I'm trying to be supportive, without giving you the message that what you did was acceptable, I hope you can appreciate that.

If the OP was pouring dinner on her child's head every night as a deliberate humiliation then that would amount to abuse but this was one incident and the OP has come on here to get perspective and advice as she knows she did something wrong. That is not abusive parenting. It is a parenting mistake that the OP regrets. Can any one of us on here admit to never having made a mistake as parents?

Orchard: food issues are very stressful. I had this issue with my DS from the age of about 18 months to 2 years old. Even now he eats a fairly limited diet and doesn't like to try new things although he does eat enough fruit and veg and so on to be healthy so it doesn't worry me so much now.

There was a period of time though when I was so worried and stressed that he would starve himself because he just never ate anything. It was really hard to deal with. I did lose my temper with him a couple of times and binned his dinner or tried to make him eat it while shouting at him because I was so scared he was losing weight.

Now I just calmly remove the food and don't make an issue out of it and since then it has got better. Also, I lowered my dietary standards. Instead of making homemade soup with organic courgettes and homemade bread etc etc I would just give him some pasta and a readymade veggie sauce or whatever. It took minimal effort to make and so I was less hung up on him eating it. So those are my two bits of advice to you: a.) stop caring so much and b.) stop making any elaborate or time-consuming meals unless they're for the whole family so you know at least someone will enjoy them.

It never ok to pour a 3 year olds dinner on top of her

Have I crossed a massive line?

Yes you have. You bloody well have & I am so angry on your daughter's behalf. You 'calmly' tipped it on her.

I am also pissed off at your dh, this is not acceptable & he just backed you up? I would go mad at dh if he did this to either of our children & yes, I would do it in front of them because it is unacceptable adult behaviour.

Your dh has just cooked you a meal, you don't want to eat it (let's say you are ill), so he tips it over your head. How do you feel?

Humiliated
Bullied
Abused
Confused
Your daughter will be feeling all that right now, plus thinking that you don't love her.

You need to stop making this a battle NOW!! If she won't eat at the table, place her elsewhere (her own little table if you have one) away from the family, not to punish her, but to take the focus off her.

Give her x amount of time to eat, stipulate what the alternatives are if she doesn't eat in that time (might be useful to get a timer, so she can hear when time is up -be realistic with the time) & make sure she gets warnings at 15 & 5 minutes, so she is aware that time is moving on.

Then take away the food. Throw it away. Offer her nothing.

She is 3, she isn't doing this to piss you off or control you, believe it or not. She doesn't know how to rebel, so it isn't that. She is upset/angry/frustrated about something & isn't able to express it. Tipping food over her isn't the way to find out what that is & you have made things worse for yourself & her.

She just takes other people off to one side to get their full attention - it can be overwhelming for them sometimes. How do you think she feels, suddenly being replaced (I know you haven't, but in her mind you have replaced her) by her sibling?

You don't seem to talk about her in a nice way at all. My 5yr old can be trying, but not once in her life, or her sisters (10) have I felt the need to cover them in their food or anything else they shouldn't be covered in.

You need help.

You know what you did was wrong, you knew it whilst you were doing it - to do it so calmly and so detached means it has gone past the point of a usual 'end of tether' situation.

I agree that tomorrow is another day, and you should move on and start over, but you do sound utterly fed up and defeated in your posts on this thread. Tonight was the catalyst moment where you crossed a line (that many otherwise lovely, non-abusive people do when they are mentally and emotionally at the end - me included) so you need to address that and sort things out.

Make an appt with Dr, be honest and tell them what happened - also seek help with hv or similar for parenting tips re eating, tantrums etc.
Deep breath, stop beating yourself up, new start, cut daughter some slack, and get support and help for yourself.

Good luck with everything

I think the OP is getting a rough time

So? What about that 3yr old child? Op didn't do it in a fit of rage, she was quite calm about it.

Oh for god's sake, some of the goody two shoes on this thread
at the thought of how many gleeful smug MNers would be piling onto the thread to put the boot in
It isn't the mark of a 'goody two shoes' or 'smug' to not have tipped your child's dinner on them. According to my recent safe guarding course, this one incident is enough for the parents to receive a visit from the appropriate agencies. So they obviously think it is nothing to be 'smug' about.

I think the op is getting a hard time because she doesn't seem remorseful for what she did. Just matter of fact about it.

I wouldn't advice apologising to her for the incident or talking about it. She is three and only little. She still loves you. Just wow! because she is only little, she doesn't need an apology? Poor kid.

I sometimes have mini-daydreams where I punch her really hard in the face. I couldn't even THINK like about my girls...

Hmm in my experience some 3 year olds, particularly girls are really political and into pushing boundaries and power and influence! What.A.Load.Of.Bull. All kids push boundaries, still no cause to tip food on them.

Has no-one ever gotten to that point before? If you say no I call bullsht.* I have been that frustrated before, but I have walked away. You can call bullshit all you like, I don't think it is acceptable to dump food on your child's head & no, I have never done it.

MrsDeVere the eloquence thing is about forgetting how young a child is when they express themselves like an older child. So the op forgetting how old her child is - an excuse to dump food on her. So is this, in your opinion, ok at a different age? Because to me, it isn't acceptable at any age.

The op has expressed her frustration in a way her dd will understand. Except she won't, she won't understand that she did this because of her behaviour. They just don't.

If anyone is concerned about the amount their child eats- keep a food diary for two weeks.

And remember that their stomachs are only as big as their fists.

My mother had issues surrounding food. When we ate at home, she would dish up & expect every.last.morsel to be gone from your plate. And she didn't care how long it took.

Sitting at the table for 2+ hours wasn't unknown in our house.

I have memories of sitting at the table heaving with food in my mouth because I was full/didn't like it/it was too dry, but I had to eat it.

My sister threw her crusts in the bin once, she was made to get them out & eat them.

I loved going to my grandparents because they put it all on the table & you helped yourself. I still got moaned at by mum to eat more, but Grandma told her that I could eat how I like in her house (relief)

I am overweight because I grew up with the mindset that my plate must be cleared. I have retrained myself to listen to when I am full. I have stopped filling my plate & where I have no control over portion control, I still struggle, but am much better.

My sister refuses still to eat crusts. In fact, she eats very little.

too funny

well done op

We are talking about a 3yr old here. It is NOT funny & the op certainly DOES NOT deserved to be congratulated on it.

well, there before [sic] the grace of God Nothing to do with the grace of God. I know when I need to step away, that isn't God, that's me knowing the limits of what is/isn't acceptable.

The things is, with MN drinkingtea is that people want to post their gut reaction (I did it on this thread & stand by every single word I have said. I do not want to take it back, because imo, if more parents know that this type of behaviour is unacceptable, then hopefull, just hopefully, it won't get out of control). They need to get out how they are feeling, hence you get pages & pages of the same kind of post. People rarely read the whole thread & then post. In my experience (and what I do) people read the op, post & then read the rest of the thread.

I think that people can post how they like & we can't have a set amount of one answer & a set amount of another, after which no one is allowed to post either of those opinions again. It just doesn't work like that. People will post what they like & only MNHQ have the power to tell them to stop.

But the people who think this is no big deal (I am not one of them btw) are not implying that it is an ok thing to do, are they It is likely that the op is going to get frustrated with this situation again soon. It isn't going to get resolved overnight. If the op has 'it's OK, it's no big deal' in her head, she may be tempted/pushed/frustrated enough to do it again. There starts the cycle of abuse, due to justification. "It's ok, because MN/society/the media etc said it is no big deal"

If she hears 'it is unacceptable/wrong, disgusting/abusive' in her head, she is LESS likely to do it again.

I hate threads like this...it shows Mumsnet in its worst light. I agree...all these PARENTS minimising what happened to this little girl, yet have told wives/partners to LTB for less on the relationship threads.

Not one little slip up..........ever!! I'll remember that line the next time I come across a DV/rape thread...

getanotherloan Great post!

The OP did not post asking for help with her terrible parenting. She posted bemoaning the waste of food and saying bless him about her DH for backing her up. Her tiny child had been assaulted and then put to bed without supper.

It was only after posters expressed their outrage and disgust that she was reduced to tears and went to speak to her DD. She apparently had no initial sense of the horribleness of how she had behaved. Hopefully now she has and will take positive steps to improve her parenting.

Lack of support is a pretty poor reason to justify/minimise assaulting a child. It wouldn't be acceptable for a single parent to do this or someone who's DH worked away. OP clearly isn't that unsupported anyway if her DH is home for supper at 18.00. I hope she thinks about her own behaviour very carefully and this thread ends up improving things for her poor DD.

Fairy you hit the nail on the head and articulated everything I felt but couldn't get down.

Why are we not allowed to say this is a bad thing? Why should the OP's feelings be prioritised over her DD's well being?

because MN has pretty much always been in the favour of the woman. How else can a woman be told to LTB for less than this, yet a mother told that this is 'a slip' 'to be laughed at as she gets older' 'well done' 'she won't remember' etc.

All ignoring a DEFENCELESS little girls humiliation & shock & who has been made a laughing stock of? And yes, some HAVE laughed.

There was even the suggestion that the little girl laughed at it. I bet she bloody didn't.

No, Jake, it isn't just you.

But it really doesn't sound like the vicious bullying of a sustained abuser. If it was, she wouldn't have posted. I disagree. Not saying that this is what it is, but it isn't outside of the realms of possibility for someone to post, get the minimisation/approval/acceptance he/she is after to continue the abuse.

If the OP was pouring dinner on her child's head every night as a deliberate humiliation then that would amount to abuse but this was one incident So if a woman comes on & states that her dh forced her to have sex ONE TIME, it's not rape because it was "one incident"?

Yes, extremes. But the same applies. Once IS enough for it to be called abusive.

This is interesting you know. I remember reading a book as a child by a well known author where there was scene where a child of a similar age was made to wear its dinner. That was not treated as a moment of abuse. It's interesting to see how attitudes have changed.
Backing away now from the rather virulent turn this thread has taken.

mysteryfairy Well said!

That was not treated as a moment of abuse. It's interesting to see how attitudes have changed

Smacking never used to be seen as abusive, as short a time ago as the 70s they still used canes in schools...YES, times change.

My opinion is, is that it was always abusive, but it was SO mainstream & so accepted that it was never formally recognised as such, much like smacking.

Rape within marriage wasn't recognised until 1992. Doesn't mean it was any less abusive before that.

Of course times change.

Differentname - people who read the OP then post before reading the thread get the "RTFT" response on many threads - it isn't the "normal" way to respond, reading the thread then posting is normal, in order not to rant about issues that have been dealt with fully, or ask the same question that has already been asked and answered 2 pages back etc. That is why once the message that it is unacceptable has been hammered home scores and scores of times and the OP has admitted it, and said she has apologised, it is right to move on to advice - people then turning around and repeating the "shame on you, you are a shit parent" stuff ad nausium and suggesting that is the only possible thing to say are being willfully blind to the pointlessness of their righteous indignation so late in the thread...

If you are going to try to tear apart other poster's comments at least read them - including the one immediately following the one you pour vitriol on, pointing out that of course over estimating your child is not a reason to pour food on them - in your righteous fury you failed to read the full comment.

I do agree with you whole heartedly on the food issues - far, far more important that the cold dinner over her head once is the drip, drip, drip every single day of making food a huge looming control issue in the house, waiting hours at the table insisting on a clean plate, getting so stressed out about it - that is setting the little girl up with the ticking time bomb of food issues that will last a life time, and is a much more constructive direction for the thread to go in than a virtual stoning of the OP... (Yes, I know I can't say which way the thread will go, but what on earth is the point of people constantly trying to bring the thread back to a point about the food throwing being unacceptable, that has already been universally acknowledged over and over and over?)

This thread may cause other parents who cross a line, not to ask for help on here.
Who can blame them for that?