What would you have done?

[Angeliz]

Hello all
DD had her first trip to the theatre today. We took her to see Bill and Ben and Andy Pandy. It was a great success and dd loved Andy Pandy and got a big wave at the end+
Then comes the sad bit for me! On the way out parents and toddlers were everywhere. I spotted a boy about the same age as dd (nearly 3)who was in a argument with his dad,(presumably), about a coat and not putting it on. The man then smacked the boys bottom quite hard. I looked at dp and grimaced and we walked on, then he did it again! As we were in the herd of people walking down the stairs i heard it again twice! It sounded like the boy had a nappy on if you see what i mean, dull rather than a slap! DP said "should i go and say something?" but the mood the guy was in i thought it would make him worse and the little boy would get the brunt of it when we left!
So.....We did nothing! I had tears in my eyes and it spoilt the magic,(though i kept it up for dd). I feel AWFUL for not doing anything! I don't agree with smacking but a tap on the hand and i wouldn't have noticed but 4 smacks on a little boys bottom and the humiliation of it too!
Just feel very sad about it!
( Should i have intervened? Would you have?)

I have been known to intervene. A woman was smacking her kid around the head and I shouted at her and she stopped (vile witch that she was). I might have said, 'leave him alone, poor little thing'. Depends on how much adrenaline was pumping round. I know how you feel though Angeliz, makes you feel sick and awful, doesn't it?

wish i had aloha
Nasty peice of work to humiliate a child like that! I said to dp,"imagine the memories that child will kepp of his trip to the theatre!)

It difficult to say really though i feel so much for children that have to go through that in public probably spoilt his day too.

My dd 2.8yrs is quite a loud child and if she sees a child being slapped she points it out to all around "Look mummy she/he is hurting that boy/girl", I have been knone to walk past and say thats what bullies do, other times she embarreses them.

But don't be sad i am sure you weren't the only parent that saw that and felt the way you did.

How awful Angeliz. And such a hard one to call.

I doubt I would have said anything but I would have felt just like you. I just never have such courage, I wish I did have. The poor little boy, what a sad upbringing for him I hope someone stands up for him at home.

I'm a fervent anti-smacker and like aloha have been known to intervene. however I have only done so when the parent is hitting a very young child (clearly under 2) or hitting around the head area. I've been yelled at but it oes seem to stop the parent in their tracks. I would be wary about saying anything in a situation like the one you describe because so many people still vehemently defend smacking. would have made me feel very sick and my DD would probably have commented very loudly about "the nasty man hitting the boy". Thinking about it she is much less reticent in her condemnation of smacking then me and DH!

I saw a boy actually beaten on a train once. It was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. I was with a friend, the whole carriage stopped, the boys mother looked out the window (it was fairly clear she must be beaten as well at home).

I don't even know what the boy did to be beaten. once minute he was laughing and joking and the next minute the father had picked him up and thrown him on the seat and was literally pounding into him. Unbleivable to do it in public - god knows what abuse he got at home. They were foreign speaking a language I didn't recognise and although there were quite a few gasps and exclamations no-one said anything. All the people in the immediate vicinity were women and I think we were all too scared to (I was- pregnant with ds2 at the time).

I would have intervened. Things like that makes me ill.

Sickening and upsetting though it is, I don't think I would have intervened. They may turn on you for interferring and it won't stop it anyway.
Very sad.

I think in the case Jimjams describes i would have got the train manager involved. That sounds like assault to me, and if the family was UK resident and someone complained at least there's a chance they would get help.

Really, really hard one, and I don't think you should give yourself too hard a time about it, Angeliz. I think if the 'right' opportunity to intervene occurs to you, in a way that it is effective, you can go for it, but it's a very difficult thing to do.

I have intervened twice: once a clearly harrassed and desparate woman was slapping a young toddler in Tesco, in the queue in front of me and I just instictively said "Oh, you're having a REALLY hard day, aren't you?" and leaned forward and took the child while she mopped up her own tears and got her shopping out of the trolley. The second time, late at night a woman was KICKING a toddler at the bus stop, and I just screamed 'that's enough' and scooped her up. Other people restrained the woman and a big fight ensued, police called etc. Other times, I am afraid, I have not been able to find a way.

I can understand why it robbed the joy from your trip, Angeliz. I think the very ambiguous stance of gvt makes it hard, too. If it was not allowed, people could have more confidence in challenging other parents...thorny issue.

I think verbal is bad too. Have heard a mum shopping shout at her child of about 3 'if you don't shut it I will leave you here you little shit'.

Just to reiterate Angeliz, certainly wouldn't blame you for not intervening. It's hard to do and I've only done it rarely and left situations where I really felt in retrospect that I should have said something. Strongly agree with Blu about the legality of it, but that's another heated debate altogether!

Angeliz, don't be angry for not intervening. I must admit, I would have had to see it for myself before I intereved, ie would I have interpreted it as 'chastisement' or 'beating'. Thin line, I know, but that could be why many other people did not intervene, as their interpretation could be different.

A number of years ago, I was in the local shopping centre on Saturday (needless to say it was very busy) and a man was shouting at a baby, could have been no more than 18 months. Anyway, I walked past giving this man the evil eye and I went a long a little furhter when I heard this almighty slap. It was so loud it felt like the entire shopping centre had held it's breath for that split second. He had hit the crying baby around the face and the mum was saying nothing. I looked around in shock, as many others did, but said nothing . But that memory has stayed with me. Even typing about it is giving me a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes.
I wasn't a parent at the time and maybe I subconsciously felt I had no right to interfere IYSWIM, as I didn't understand the true presssure of parenthood. However, I do now and I would say something if a situation as awful were to take place again.

BTW, my first post was not to start a debate on smacking, just to explain why some may intervene and others not

My friend and I were going to call the police in the train incident, but it happened just as we were pulling into Victoria. I don't think there are train managers on little communter trains!

No probably not. Didn't get that from your first posting JimJams.

LadyP, I think that was clear. As I have tried to say, despite my anti-smacking stance, as things stand I have to feel very certain that nobody could interpret the parent's behaviour as "reasonable". And for those which could be seen as "reasonable" DD does the rebuking for me!

Exactly, Mariluisa...unfortunately (IMO) I think smacking children like this is normal and accepted in many families and communities, and that leaves intervening down to the imposition of one person's value judgements and beliefs on another: very hard to do. The chances are that the poor child was not very badly physically damaged...thick winter clothing, possibly a nappy etc, but that the misery is more chronic and built in to his every day life. WE can only ever achieve so much by intervention - the rest is a much bigger issue about parenting in our culture. Angelize wouldn't have seen what she saw in Scandinavia.

I really don't think that you should intervene.
When my dh was suffering from depression he would loose his temper with ds1 all of the time.
He finally went to his gps when in the middle of a supermarket he hit ds1 around the head. It was the worst moment in our lives. But it would have been made 10 times worse if someone had said something to us, the gasps were enough. We were well aware of what had happened and dh has never forgiven himself.

That's a powerful point, Bekki, and when I took the child from the woman in Tesco's there was no point in having anything but sympathy for the woman herself. So often people under pressure need support, not condemnation.

Sorry Bekki but I'm not convinced. There are plenty of people out there who think hitting kids around the head is ok. As it happens your DH did get a reaction, you mention gasps from other shoppers. I have never verbally abused someone hitting a child but i have made comments along the lines of "that is unnecessary". And there are plenty of peple who suffer from depression, take it out on their kids but never experience the moment of realization your DH did. Their behaviour just spirals downwards. Whilst i have evry sympathy with someone in that position I don't think taht their behaviour should be allowed to pass by unremarked just because they're unwell. If a child living in a horrible environment went round bullying other kids the child would still need to know their behaviour is unacceptable.

Very interesting read this!
Thanks everyone++ Feel a bit better knowing i'm not the only one who would have (did) walk past!
I was actually thinkg of this alot last night and was thinking of using "reasonable force" in other situations where if you PUSHED a child you'd be in trouble, but to whack your own is fine
I don't think the child would have been badly hurt, (as you said Blu winter clothes and nappy i think), but to me the psychological damage would be worse.
I just think that you should bang your head against the wall and SCREAM before you take so much frustration out on a little child!

I'm with Bekki

I probably shouldn't post here, because this is a subject I feel too strongly about and i'm aware that my views could be seen as extreme. But at what point do you decide that it is ok to intervene? Should the man jimJams saw beating his son on the train be excused because maybe he's a refugee, has PTSD etc? As I said, i am quite conservative in what I comment on, IIRC hitting a child around the head is one of the few circumstances which cannot be legally explained as "reasonable chastisement". No, we can never know exactly what is going on in strangers' lives, or even those of friends, but when someone is taking their own problems out on someone else, be they emotional, social or whatever, and especially if the someone else is a child, then we should say something. it's similar to the whole Kitty Genovese thing.

When to intervene?

For me it would be at the point where the child could sustain an injury......because I do believe there are gradations of smacking, and they are not all equally morally reprehensible.

I would have been tempted to wade in with the train scenario (although easy for me to say not having been present...maybe I would have been too frightened to act)