What would you have done?

[Angeliz]

Hello all
DD had her first trip to the theatre today. We took her to see Bill and Ben and Andy Pandy. It was a great success and dd loved Andy Pandy and got a big wave at the end+
Then comes the sad bit for me! On the way out parents and toddlers were everywhere. I spotted a boy about the same age as dd (nearly 3)who was in a argument with his dad,(presumably), about a coat and not putting it on. The man then smacked the boys bottom quite hard. I looked at dp and grimaced and we walked on, then he did it again! As we were in the herd of people walking down the stairs i heard it again twice! It sounded like the boy had a nappy on if you see what i mean, dull rather than a slap! DP said "should i go and say something?" but the mood the guy was in i thought it would make him worse and the little boy would get the brunt of it when we left!
So.....We did nothing! I had tears in my eyes and it spoilt the magic,(though i kept it up for dd). I feel AWFUL for not doing anything! I don't agree with smacking but a tap on the hand and i wouldn't have noticed but 4 smacks on a little boys bottom and the humiliation of it too!
Just feel very sad about it!
( Should i have intervened? Would you have?)

I did it once and got smacked in the face as well, police court case, short jail term - child removed - saddest thing was the child was a foster child, unreal, offered to take the child myself (was 3 yr old boy year younger than mine, but of course I was unsuitable being a single mum who worked! My broken tooth repaired for free as well.
Well worth it. Just hope the little lad grew up happy somewhere

HMC, that's what I've been trying to explain. I know there are plenty of people who think that smacking is ok. I also think there's a difference between the incident Angeliz describes (distasteful and upsetting as I find that) and the one JimJams describes. Hence, I would probably not have commented on the incident Angeliz describes but would have commented on the actions of Bekki's DH, simply because hitting a child around the head is extremely dangerous and IMO is not the action of someone trying to "chastise" their child. It is the action of someone who is not in control of themselves, as Bekki's DH realised.

Absolutely agree HMC, I shouldn't really post here because I will get stoned (!) but I think there are csaes where a smack on the nappy (not full force but enough to gain the childs attention) is sort of acceptable. There is, IMO, a very big difference between smacking a child and beating a child. I know that beating starts somewhere but feel that not everyone who smacks a naughty child is a child abuser just like not everyone who drinks beer will turn into an alcoholic. Sensible parents use chastisement (sp) in ways they feel to be acceptable. If I saw a child (or an adult for that matter) being what I considered to be abused eg smacked round the head, smacked or thumped or kicked even once I would almost certainly intervene. I can not bear bullying in any form. However, I think you have to be very sure of your ground. You do not know, and I am not excusing the parent in question in any way shape or form, but you do not know what had happened previously to this incident. Perhaps this was not just a case of a child not putting their coat on, perhaps they were playing up because they had been told off for something else more serious. I think generally that any sustained punishment is wrong so 4 smacks was over the top, but you shouldn't berate yourself for not intervening - every situation is different, next time you may feel you have to do something.

Helsbels, don't worry, I'm a rabid anti-smacker and there's nothing there that makes me want to stone you

thanks marialuisa - I try to be reasonable in everything!!! (except credit card bills of course!!)

Yes, there are graduation of smacking and they are not equally morally reprehensible. I personally think all physical disciplining of children should be banned because it is obvious from examples on this thread that what constitues morally reprehensible smacking is different for each parent. I also think that if it's legal to smack children, it should be legal to smack adults too. And our children should be allowed to smack us when we get old and frail and senile and really annoying, don't you think?

with you all the way Fairymum but sadly I don't think there'll be much support for that stance!

Incidentally one of the things that struck me about bekki's post was whether she'd have felt the same way if her DH had hit her. I know DH and i bicker round Sainsbury's and wind each other up.

There's support from me Fairymum. I can't remember which thread it was but someone posted a survey the NSPCC did on how children feel about smacking. I couldn't see how anyone could read it and then think smacking can be justified at all.

Intervention is what this thread is actually trying to focus on. So to try and get back to the point would intervention make a difference
What is the point in going up to a parent who was obviously feeling a mixture of emotions after smacking a child and then saying "You shouldn't have done that". You are either going to get hit yourself or you are going to turn the parent into a gibbering wreck.
This is difficult subject to discuss, because when I reply to these threads I'm imagining a normal smack but others might be thinking of an attack like Jimjams describes or the awful incident with my husband.
I am anti smacking now. But it was only mn that convinced me that there were other ways of helping children to learn to cooperate. In saying that though ds1 is an extremely difficult child perhaps due to our parenting or something more likely that he was born with, we'll let the professionals decide. Anyway yes hes very difficult and sometimes we slip a little and shout but smacking is a rare occurance now. Thank you mumsnet!

If my dh had hit me in the same manner I would have reacted the same way. I would have grabbed my kids and ran out and had a major arguement when he got home. That is exactly what I did, but I cried buckets as well that day.

well done to BLU for handling the supermarket situation so compassionately - could you expand about the scandanavia thing? and wonderful words of wisdom from FAIRYMUM. i would hope in that situation i would just say 'please stop' but my own anger and distress for the child would probably prevent me from being articulate. i saw a similar incident on a train and reported to the on duty policeman while the train was still in the station - he laughed and said she was probably having a bad day!!? i completely agree that smacking should be banned - it would teach the parents that they must manage their emotions and (hopefully) teach their children in the process how to manage theirs. it is very distressing reading some of these posts but also gives me faith in human nature that we are all trying are best and want to find another way.....

Bekki, the question is whether you would intervene, and when discussing intervention it naturally follows that we discuss at what point we should intervene. What constitutes a "normal smack"? I hope we all agree that we would all intervene if we saw a child be hit over the head/abused. If we all agree on this, we have to decide on the defintion "normal smack"/abuse. This is not easy. It isn't easy for the police either. I believe a lot of child abuse is not reported or dealt with because people are worried they are just reporting a "normal smack". If banning smacking completely can save just one child from serious abuse, then it's good enough reason for me! In countries were smacking is banned (like Scandinavia), fewer children die from child abuse. I don't think Scandinavian children are any less well-behaved than Bristish children.

I think the point is Bekki that intevention is extremely difficult when as a society we tolerate smacking and parents think that this is an acceptable way to treat 'their' children. So it is a lot easier to imagine intervening if you saw a woman being hit in the street, which we would all agree is unacceptable, than it would to imagine getting involved when a child is being hit. This shouldn't be the case. BTW I also agree with Blu that there are ways of intervening that aren't necessarily confrontational, but make the point - I have done similar things myself.

Sorry bekki, I wasn't trying to upset you but I do believe that hitting a child round the head is always wrong and that people should intervene. As you were there and from the sound of it had a fairly strong reaction yourself there was little need for people to add anything else. but what if your DH had been alone with your DS? As you felt that your DH shouldn't have been tackled about hitting your DS I wondered whether you would have felt the same if he had hit you. sorry, quite hard to explain.

I also think I would always have more concern for the child than the adult. Head-hitting is brutal and dangerous and should ALWAYS be challenged in a civilised society, I believe. Yes, your son was lucky Bekki, because your husband came to his senses and got help, and thank God for that, and I'm very glad about it. But how would anyone else know that? Suppose he had been a different person entirely who went home and beat his son up to the point of brain damage, secure in the knowledge that it was OK to hit your kid around your head. Social disapproval is a powerful tool for changing behaviour, IMO. I think a lot of these people have never had to consider they are doing anything wrong and that their children aren't just things that belong to them and they can treat any way they like. I honestly believe we have a duty to the weak and defenceless in our society. What I see happening to children around me frequently makes me upset and angry. We turn a blind eye too frequently I think - not just individually, but in general. I often think of that brave taxi driver who took Victoria Climbie to hospital when he saw the state she was in, against her evil aunt's wishes. Sadly though, the hospital discharged her. I think that man was a hero.

Re: police attitudes, a mother was whacking her son in the town centre recently during school hours (boy was about 9). A policeman stopped her and asked why he wasn't in school, mother replied he was ill. Policeman then said that if he was ill belting him wasn't very nice and took them off towards the cop shop. So i guess (yet again) it comes down to individual's judgements.

If the mother was there and clearly moved to defend the child and berate the hitter, I probably wouldn't feel the need to intervene. But if not, then yes, intervention should happen IMO.
Bekki, this isn't an attack on you BTW. You didn't do anything wrong at all and your dh has clearly beaten his demons so well done to him too. It's hard to discuss things theoretically without causing hurt.

Aloha, as usual you espress things so much more eloquently than me You don't fancy writing a letter to a very sweet but very dim student to explain why they are being chucked off their course do you?

I would if you really wanted me to! Having a slow day at work today and the alternative is cleaning the kitchen....aaargh!
Thank you for your kind words.

Yep, slow here as well. Honestly, I feel so sorry for this girl as she's really sweet and could probably get a degree in a different subject (she's doing Vet Sci) easily. Don't want to just send out the "Regret to inorm you..Senate Progress Commitee..blah blah" . Oh well, nearly home time.

If you know the people involved then intervention is definitely right - and easy. I had a Dad tell me once (during an interview I'd called him into school for about his son's behviour) that if he heard his son had done anything more like this he would "take his belt off, you know what I mean." As soon as the interview was over I made a written report for our child protection officer. A short while later I was contacted by social services, as similar comments had been made by neighbours. Social workers were then able to intervene sensitively and effectively.

But in the street/public place it is more difficult, because you risk further enraging the offender, and potentially making the poor child's private life even more difficult - you have less control over the situation, and could easily make it worse.

I agree with the point made several times that, like with bullying, the person carrying out the smacking often desperately needs help themselves, and that if you feel yourself in a position able to provide that help (e.g. like Blu in the supermarker) then do so, but if it will make the matter worse (e.g. the poor family on the train) then you need to look beyond direct intervention.

It's such a tricky one, and a highly complex and emotional issue. I'm sorry it upset your trip Angeliz, hopefully your dd has fond memories.

Note to self: don't get involved in anymore smacking debates, especially not when ill, tired and emotional.

If I had been hit I wouldn't have wanted anyone to intervene.

Deciding to intervene has to be done on the spur of the moment. You haven't seen the hours, days, weeks beforehand that have built up to the situation. You can only see an adult hitting a child. I don't think that you should intervene if you can see that the smacking has finished, but you can call the social services. If a child is being beaten in front of you then you have a right to say something.

If smacking is to banned then this country should lower their expectations of childrens behaviour. I cannot take ds1 out anywhere anymore because of all of their looks when he 'misbehaves'. Hes quite happy to have a tantrum for over an hour. As soon as a child starts crying you are expected to shut them up, its not feasible. This country is anti-children so how can it be anti-smacking.

O.k be nice fellow mn's.

Didn't read whole thread, but I thought that you were brave to admit that, Bekki. I'm not the world's best parent, either. I get loads of disapproval and have been told off in public for not supervising one or both of mine as expected; you try to keep 2 under 4 quiet and safe at every moment! I guess I'm not expected to go out much. So no, I don't think 4 smacks on the botty is worth intervening (but that's quite a contrast to Jimjams story on the train, where I think intervention would be called for).

Honest to a big, ginormous fault thats me!
I think alot of parents have similar stories but as parents we are expected to appear to be perfect, to hide any cracks. So its just me and you admitting we aren't perfect, hmm I wonder what these lot get up to behind closed doors!

Hey bekki, I can honestly ay I'm astonished that you wouldn't have wanted anyone to intervene if your DH had hit you instead. As for a ban on smacking meaning that we shuld lower our expectations of kids' behaviour, why? I ahve every sympathy for a mum with a tantruming cild, but my sympathy is tempered by distaste if her method of dealing with it is to smack and shout. I don't believe it's necessary. I put my time where my mouth is and volunteer on a positive parenting type course in a socially deprived area where there are lots of parents with big problems.

As for the unnecessary comment about what "these lot get up to", and the implication that we think we're perfect parents, well i've posted today about losing my DD in a supermarket and her expedition across the busy car park and plenty of other less than flattering comments about myself, my DH and our approach to parenting.

So, as I have sai I wouldn't have intervened in the incident angeliz describes, or with you and your DH because you said you acted to protect your son. but why should i ignore an adult assaulting a child just because the adult might be stressed or whatever? And whilst I may be personally disgusted by the thought of smacking/hitting another person I accept that society doesn't agree with me (on the whole) and try not to grimace when friends smack their kids.