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Parenting without punishments/rewards support thread

255 replies

BertieBotts · 15/07/2012 22:45

Come on, it's about time we had a new one of these Grin Whatever label you want to stick on it, unconditional parenting, gentle discipline, or just avoiding carrot or stick methods as much as possible in favour of a more co-operative approach, it works. (Personally I don't like the gentle label because I think that it's perfectly possible to be as firm as you like using these kinds of methods and "gentle" implies wishy-washiness.)

Not intended to be a debate thread, but a support/questions thread. Curiosity welcomed, outright "My way is better" posts not.

I promised a while ago I'd write up the basic principles that I try to stick to so hopefully this will help as a starting point as well as a reference.

1. Punishments are not always bad.
Sounds totally non intuitive, I know considering the thread title. The point is that punishment for punishment's sake is what's bad, or counterproductive, at least, but you shouldn't be afraid to do something which might upset your child if it's necessary to the situation. Try to ask yourself before you impose something:

  • Is this helping the immediate situation, or physically preventing the situation from reoccurring?
  • Is this helping my DC learn what's actually wrong with what they did?
  • Is this helping make things right? (NOT in an eye-for-an-eye way!)
  • Is this just to make me feel better?
  • Is there an alternative which would achieve the same goal with less bad feeling?

2. Don't take it personally.
When your child is playing up, it's not because they are out to get you, and it's probably not a power battle, despite what all the expert opinions seem to be. They are reacting in the way they are reacting because that is the best way they know to deal with that situation, whatever it might be.

Even if they've done something deliberately hurtful or spiteful, look for the reason behind that - it's more likely to be a misguided attempt to express an emotion, e.g. anger, jealousy, upset, and it's possible to convey "Actually, that isn't acceptable" at the same time as dealing with the feeling behind the actions - in fact it's often more important to deal with the feeling first and the action later, especially if you're feeling you want them to suffer, "pay" or feel bad for what they've done. You can't induce guilt by punishing, it's more likely to induce resentment.

3. Show them what you want.
Both at crisis point and in everyday life, so, again, something often considered a punishment e.g. time out can work well here as long as you aren't threatening it or attaching negative connotations to it - just showing them "You are angry/excited/silly/winding each other up and I need you to take a breather" until they can do that for themselves.

In everyday life - model the behaviour that you want. If you slip into something you don't want them to model, like shouting, apologise as soon as you realise even if it's after the fact. Respond if they ask you to stop shouting, and own it, don't make them responsible for it (by saying things like "If you'd just listen, I wouldn't have to shout". Grown ups screw up too, and they need to see you deal with that graciously if they are to learn to do the same.

Listen to their requests and acknowledge them (which doesn't mean agree) if you want them to listen to you, don't belittle their feelings if you want them to be empathetic, say please and thank you and sorry. Negotiate but be firm.

4. Be specific with instructions or praise.
Linking back to the UP theory that rewards/praise can be harmful, especially if they are too non specific, try to steer clear of "stock praise" like good girl/boy, well done, etc. It's fairly easy once you get into the habit of it - I tend to use "Thank you for..." instead of "good boy" and "That's right" or some kind of comment about whatever it is DS is telling/showing me rather than just "Well done".

With instructions it's similar - you can start even when they're tiny, not just saying "No" but "careful" or "hot" or "Don't touch" and when they get a bit older trying to stick to the positive instruction like "Stay on the pavement" rather than "Don't go on the road" - it's also more instructive since not being on the road could mean the kerb is okay, or the grass, or that little low wall (which might actually be okay but you can negotiate easier if you're starting from a position of nowhere but the pavement.) I suppose points 3 and 4 are linked. So again, focus on what you want rather than what you don't want. It can also help especially with toddlers to instruct in advance/tell them what to expect, e.g. saying a few minutes before you get to a busy road that when you get there, they will need to go in the pushchair.

5. Look past the immediate behaviour.
Why are they behaving in this way? Immediate points to consider:

  • Are they tired, hungry, hot or hormonal?
  • Are you any of the above and so over-reacting?
  • Is there anything else going on, even if it seems unrelated, that might be worrying them?
  • Are you assuming adult priorities onto a child who might find something more important or more scary than you do?
  • Have they got this behaviour from somewhere else?
  • Are your expectations too high?

None of these are a total excuse but should shape the way you deal with things. It's also why things like reward charts etc aren't always helpful because they don't address why something isn't happening in the first place.

(Sorry this is so long Blush)

OP posts:
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poppyboo · 24/07/2012 07:28

thejoyful playful parenting has been so valuable to me, it's on my nightstand permently, but I would hate anyone to miss out on reading Simplicity Parenting, it is such a core book for me that I will refer to for years to come.

MamaBear17 · 24/07/2012 08:42

Reading this thread is funny. My DD is just about to turn one so a little young for most of this to apply, but I am a teacher and this is the method of 'discipline' that trainee teachers are taught to manage classroom behaviour. Positive reinforcement is always a better way than shout and punish. You all remember that teacher who used to scream and shout right? S/he was hilarious! You didn't respect or respond well to that teacher (even if you were one of the good kids) can you even remember what they taught? I bet you can remember the sense of injustice you felt though when they handed out sweeping punishments like 'whole class detentions' when you hadn't done anything wrong. However, that teacher who was really exciting and fun, but who had firm expectations of behaviour and always gave you a warning and a chance to correct your behaviour before telling you off, was the teacher that you always wanted to behave well for. I am not anti-punishment - they have there place. But, it must be worthwhile. I always talk about expectations rather than rules too. x

GoodButNotOutstanding · 24/07/2012 20:53

Actually mamabear I'm a teacher too and have never seen any school advocate this. I don't know if you are primary or secondary but all the secondary schools I've been in have had quite strictly defined rewards and punishments, and the primaries dd1 has been to have had a massive amount of rewards built in. Of course we're encouraged to have firm boundaries etc but with the back up of sanctions when you feel you need them. Positive reinforcement is just another way of saying praise and rewards. So unless you're teaching in a VERY different school to me you are probably using a fair amount of rewards and punishments without even realising it. I know I wasn't aware of how often I offered a reward or threatened/warned about a punishment until I read some of these books. Personally I still use rewards/punishments at school although I try to do it less often, as not using them would require a change in the ethos of the whole school, not just one teacher. I attempt to do it differently at home though, with very little direct praise (more describing what has happened) and natural consequences for actions rather than punishments.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

MsBakingCakes · 24/07/2012 21:39

Nice points Smile, I love it!!!!

I have been following UP since DD was very young and now I have suddenly realised that or I am doing it completely wrong or it is not working for us very well.

As poppyboo mentioned, DD seems to need some boundaries and I am stroggling with it at the moment. I have to add that I am separated from her dad and he is the kind of praise and punish dad. Everytime she comes back home it seems all the hard work we have done with her (DP and myself) is completely gone and we have to start again from zero. I am feeling very low as I cannot see the way I want to parent to work at the moment Sad. It used to be very easy to talk with her and to reason and now none of this is working. DD is 3 years old by the way.

DD only sees her dad every 8 weeks so it usually takes us 2 to 3 weeks (although it is getting better lately) to get back to normal and then two weeks before she goes with him she starts being horrible again (apologise for the expresion but I cannot find better word to describe it at the moment) so we only have a few nice weeks together.

I feel very guilty that at the moment I am putting her in her room (I ave used this 3 times) for her to calm down while I came downstairs to calm down myself Blush but I cannot see another solution.

This time round she has been here only for a week and it is being a nightmare. She is very clingy to the point that she will call mama every few second and when I say "what" she does not say anything, it drives me mad sometimes Blush. My patience at the moment is very short as it seems a constant battle with her which I hate, this is not the type of mum I want to be Sad.

I know that she needs me more because as soon as I picked her up she asked me for breastmilk even though I have stopped breastfeeding her last December Blush.

I need some help at the moment and I don't know what else to do. When she is with her dad he goes to his parents so he has all the time to dedicate to her but when she is back she expects the same and it is very difficult although we do a lot of things together.

Any ideas/advice please? Thanks

MsBakingCakes · 24/07/2012 21:58

She is also being very rude to me and DP saying to us "I am not talking to you" in a very rude way. This has never been said to her in this house and we don't know how to stop it. It is really annoying and we are not sure how to handle it without being rude back at her which it is not ideal. I have tried to as her to think how it makes us feel and although she says sad she doesn't seem willing to stop it.

So again any ideas/advice very much apreciated

Gauchita · 24/07/2012 22:02

MsBakingCakes, that must be hard. It can be very hard indeed when one parent follows this approach but the other does the punishment/reward/conditional one. How is your relationship with your ex? Do you think talking to him about this would be possible/useful?

Is it just her being "clingier" when she comes back or does she show other changes as well?

DD does the mama mama mama thing, mostly when I have DS velcroed on me Grin and she wants some attention. In your DD's case I guess it might also feel a bit confusing maybe? (The difference between you and your ex, I mean).

Sorry, I don't think I've offered any useful advice Blush I'll think of some ideas for you.

Gauchita · 24/07/2012 22:09

x-post

DD came home with that phrase a couple of weeks ago, from nursery we guess? She says "I'm not talking now". We usually ask her if she's sure (besides giving her another more polite phrase to use next time), and if she says yes, we say "ok, let us know when you want to talk" and quite frequently a few minutes later she comes back and says "I'm ready now". We try then and talk about what was making her feel angry or sad.

Do you think that could work for her? You could emphasise the way in which she's saying it to you, though. You could tell her that sounds a bit rude and if she wants some time on her own she can say "X".

I'm not sure this is "the right approach", though Grin It's what we've been doing.

ThePathanKhansWitch · 24/07/2012 22:09

Lovely post bertie and lots of good ideas, just marking a place to read tomorrow.

BertieBotts · 24/07/2012 23:09

Yes I definitely agree with trying to get her to rephrase the "not talking to you" thing - because it's okay if she doesn't always feel like communicating, but it's not nice to be spoken to rudely. DS went through a phase of this too and not only when he was feeling overwhelmed but also if I was saying something he didn't want to hear like an instruction! I just used to say "That's okay, but you still need to get your shoes on" (or whatever). Try not to take it personally.

It must be very hard when your ex is so conditional. My ex is like this as well and sometimes I think that in a way it's a blessing that he doesn't see DS any more (his choice) I wonder if you could do a kind of debrief after she comes home like the "best part/worst part" thing mentioned earlier in the thread, and also just do some stuff with her to help cement the fact she has two families and two homes effectively. My health visitor suggested (back when DS saw XP) that we could make a little book with him with photos of all the people in his family, our family and XP's family and his childminder and all the people and places that are special to him, and perhaps choose some pictures of them together for her bedroom or something, so she feels he's around and she doesn't have to compartmentalise her life massively. I know this is really hard if you have a bad relationship with your ex, I felt a bit weird about having pictures of him in my home, but I think HV might have had a point and it is her space, rather than yours.

Also, eight weeks is a long time for a three year old. Is contact that sporadic for a reason? Could it be broken up at all even with a phone conversation or a skype chat more regularly? Just so that going to see him isn't a massive thing that she gets so hyped up about. I think that the behaviour is probably more likely to be about excitement/anxiety about seeing or missing Dad in general rather than any kind of discipline he uses, unless he's really strict and so she's anxious about that in particular, because schools tend to be very conditional and DCs switch alright between school and home, usually. So make sure she knows it's okay to talk about Dad and have pictures etc up of him (if you don't already) and a bit of a debrief (happy things/sad things) and just a talk through of feelings but really trying to keep your own feelings in check even if she says something which makes you think "How dare he!" because children will pick up on stuff, which is also why it's really common for them to pick up on an unconscious train of thought that they're "not allowed" to talk about the other parent - sometimes they need it really spelling out that it's okay, and it's okay for them to be happy with their other parent and that isn't a rejection of you :)

I'm really aware that some posters' questions have got lost as this is a fast moving thread - please repost or nudge if you haven't had replies!

OP posts:
MsBakingCakes · 25/07/2012 00:01

Thanks to both of you. It can be very hard at times to be honest. We have pictures of him and his family on DD bedroom which I askd for as I thought it would be a good idea. We talk a lot about him and his family although I do not start the subject, I just follow DD lead.

DD sees her dad twice on Skype and when she is back I try for DD to call him everyday by asking her if she wants to talk with her dad.

My relation with ExP is not very good but I always try to talk nicely about him with DD as opposed to him.

I guess we will have to keep trying and working a step at the time. Just feeling a bit frustrated at the moment

Thanks

PeggyCarter · 25/07/2012 05:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

worrywortisworrying · 25/07/2012 06:05

Hi, just found this thread and very curious!

I parent my DS like this. He has high functioning aUtism, so I've come to learn to look at the reasons for his behaviour, not the behaviour itself. Very interested to read it is a tried and tested method. Will be reading with interest.

GoodButNotOutstanding · 25/07/2012 09:30

Joyful The praise thing does seem very odd doesn't it? I think it's more about thinking about what you are saying rather than just saying 'good girl' all the time. So possibly instead of saying 'thank you for being kind to your brother' I would say something like 'you gave x a toy, can you see how he's smiling? I think he likes it'. So I've interpreted it as describing how her actions affect other people and I do that for both good and bad, so I'm just as likely to be found saying 'you snatched that toy off x, now he's crying. Can you think of how we can make him feel better?'

PeggyCarter · 25/07/2012 10:36

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gauchita · 25/07/2012 10:38

Yes, I think it's the phrases we use that can make a difference, as GoodButNot says.
This is from the UP book.

[...] "Good job" can interfere with how well a job actually gets done. Researchers keep finding that individuals who are praised for doing well at a creative task often stumble at the next task. Why? Partly because the praise creates pressure to "keep up the good work" that gets in the way of doing so. Partly because people's interest in what they're doing may have declined (because now the main goal is just to get more praise). Partly because they become less likely to take risks - a prerequisite for creativity - once they start thinking about how to keep those positive comments coming [...]

[...] More worrisome was a study in which young children who were often praised by their parents for displays of generosity tended to be slightly less generous on an everyday basis than other children were - again, just like kids who received tangible rewards. Every time they heard "good sharing!" or "I'm so proud of you for helping" they became a little less interested in sharing or helping. Those actions came to be seen not as something valuable in their own right but as something the children had to do to get that reaction again from an adult. in this case, it was generosity that became merely a means to an end. in other case, it might be painting or swimming or multiplying or anything else for which we offer positive reinforcement [...]

[...] Take Jack: He shared his toy with a friend in the hopes that his mom would notice and shower him with adulation ("I really like how you're letting Gregory play, too"). But then there's Zack: He shared his toy without knowing or even caring whether his mom noticed. He did it for the simple reason that he didn't want his friend to feel bad. Praise for sharing typically ignores these different motives. Worse, it may actually promote the less desirable one by making children more likely to fish for praise in the future [...]

Gauchita · 25/07/2012 10:47

Claireinmodena, yesterday I remembered that in the "How to talk book" (don't have it with me atm, I lent it to a friend) they mention, IIRC, something about giving them the option of coming up with a solution to arguments or fights between them.

So, if your DC for example are fighting over a jumper, you go to them and ask say something like "I see both of you would like to wear that jumper, do you think you could think and come up with a solution to this? I'll come back in a few minutes". I think I can remember it saying something like that. It said that it's good to we give them the option to come up with solutions themselves instead of us mediating all the time and making the decisions for them. The wording can be adapted depending on the age of the DC.

PeggyCarter · 25/07/2012 11:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SilveryMoon · 25/07/2012 11:04

I'm just going to jump right in! The thread title sounds like the kind of thing I'm looking for and the kind of parent that I always wanted to be, if only my children would allow me to be that parent Wink
Anyhow, I have 2 ds's. 5yo and 3.6yo. What a handful!
This morning I started a thread on how to tackle standard sibling rows, but no response. I think I may find tips and skills that I am seeking here.
That's us, so now I am going to start reading the thread.

Belmo · 25/07/2012 11:20

Reading this with interest. My dd is only ten months, so far today I've already told her she's 'naughty' for lobbing her beaker off her highchair and 'clever' for pointing at her nose. The no praise thing sounds like the hardest thing to follow to me (although tbf I've never had a toddler!)

Gauchita · 25/07/2012 11:22

TheJoy, I think it's hard not to Grin most of us have been brought up under a behaviouralist approach (I was!) so it really comes naturally to be like that. I find it has to be a daily exercise for us, otherwise consistency wobbles Blush

What I struggle the most these days is not interfering directly when DC are snatching things off each others' hands. It's so much quicker but counterproductive so I count to 10 and ask DD to give me a solution to the sharing problem they're having, etc... takes longer, but I guess in the long them it shall bear fruits

Bertie, you mentioned how DC switched from nursery to home "approach". How did you work that with DS? M these days says a lot of "good job mami" or "say sorry to me mami" if something has gone wrong or the best one "you're going to the book corner now" Hmm
We don't use those phrases (especially as we don't speak English at home Grin) so I know she's learnt them at nursery. Anyone has any tips for that?

MsBakingCakes · 25/07/2012 11:23

How do you deal with a child that has started talking in rude manners? At the moment I am not sure any more how to do it. Asking DD how she thinks that talking like this mks people feel doesn't seem to work. She always say sad but keeps doing it. Even if I ask her if she would like us to talk to her like this she will answer not but carry on doing it. Any ideas plase Grin?

SilveryMoon · 25/07/2012 11:24

There is a lot here to read, but I will make my way through it.
Ds1 and 2 are playing with the trains and I hear ds2 whinging. I ignore it because I don't want to reward that behaviour.
Then I hear a slap and ds2 cries running up to me saying ds1 hit him.
I looked at ds1 and he said he hit ds2 because ds2 was pushing him.
How am I supposed to deal with this?
Again now, ds2 just dropped something on ds1 who is laying on the floor. ds1 yells "ooooowwwww" and ds2 runs to me shouting "I said sorry I said sorry" now they are both telling me one hurt him first etc etc, what am I supposed to do?

MsBakingCakes · 25/07/2012 11:27

Hi Gauchita. Exactly in the same situation here. DD goes to a pre-school where they don't use this things but the childminder that sometims takes DD to school does as well as her father (we are separated). She has started telling us (DP and myself) the same things in a really rude way. As wells as she has started saying that she is naughty or other people is naughty (this comes from her dad). We are trying to explain her that nobody is naughty and saying instead that sometimes what they do is not correct but she keeps using the horrible word Sad

WhereMyMilk · 25/07/2012 11:32

I'm in.

Having a generally hard time with DS (just 6). Very bright young man. Described as a model perfect pupil by teacher. However, once home, becomes some kind of monster. Screams in his younger brother's (3) face annd gives him no allowances for being younger at all, and has some near fisticuffs fights with DD(8). Shouts at me too, the word NO comes out a lot. Also does the hands over ears thing, plush often get " you can't make me!" which obviously is true!

I understand he's tired, and tell him so. Also understand that as he's so good all day, that his energy must come out, so we do lots of running, biking, park etc.

Just seem to be getting into a bit of a cycle. All thoughts gratefully received!

MsBakingCakes · 25/07/2012 11:40

WhereMyMilk all the behaviou you are describing is going on in this house too but DD is only 3 next week Sad. I will be following any of the answers you get Grin