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Parenting without punishments/rewards support thread

255 replies

BertieBotts · 15/07/2012 22:45

Come on, it's about time we had a new one of these Grin Whatever label you want to stick on it, unconditional parenting, gentle discipline, or just avoiding carrot or stick methods as much as possible in favour of a more co-operative approach, it works. (Personally I don't like the gentle label because I think that it's perfectly possible to be as firm as you like using these kinds of methods and "gentle" implies wishy-washiness.)

Not intended to be a debate thread, but a support/questions thread. Curiosity welcomed, outright "My way is better" posts not.

I promised a while ago I'd write up the basic principles that I try to stick to so hopefully this will help as a starting point as well as a reference.

1. Punishments are not always bad.
Sounds totally non intuitive, I know considering the thread title. The point is that punishment for punishment's sake is what's bad, or counterproductive, at least, but you shouldn't be afraid to do something which might upset your child if it's necessary to the situation. Try to ask yourself before you impose something:

  • Is this helping the immediate situation, or physically preventing the situation from reoccurring?
  • Is this helping my DC learn what's actually wrong with what they did?
  • Is this helping make things right? (NOT in an eye-for-an-eye way!)
  • Is this just to make me feel better?
  • Is there an alternative which would achieve the same goal with less bad feeling?


2. Don't take it personally.
When your child is playing up, it's not because they are out to get you, and it's probably not a power battle, despite what all the expert opinions seem to be. They are reacting in the way they are reacting because that is the best way they know to deal with that situation, whatever it might be.

Even if they've done something deliberately hurtful or spiteful, look for the reason behind that - it's more likely to be a misguided attempt to express an emotion, e.g. anger, jealousy, upset, and it's possible to convey "Actually, that isn't acceptable" at the same time as dealing with the feeling behind the actions - in fact it's often more important to deal with the feeling first and the action later, especially if you're feeling you want them to suffer, "pay" or feel bad for what they've done. You can't induce guilt by punishing, it's more likely to induce resentment.

3. Show them what you want.
Both at crisis point and in everyday life, so, again, something often considered a punishment e.g. time out can work well here as long as you aren't threatening it or attaching negative connotations to it - just showing them "You are angry/excited/silly/winding each other up and I need you to take a breather" until they can do that for themselves.

In everyday life - model the behaviour that you want. If you slip into something you don't want them to model, like shouting, apologise as soon as you realise even if it's after the fact. Respond if they ask you to stop shouting, and own it, don't make them responsible for it (by saying things like "If you'd just listen, I wouldn't have to shout". Grown ups screw up too, and they need to see you deal with that graciously if they are to learn to do the same.

Listen to their requests and acknowledge them (which doesn't mean agree) if you want them to listen to you, don't belittle their feelings if you want them to be empathetic, say please and thank you and sorry. Negotiate but be firm.

4. Be specific with instructions or praise.
Linking back to the UP theory that rewards/praise can be harmful, especially if they are too non specific, try to steer clear of "stock praise" like good girl/boy, well done, etc. It's fairly easy once you get into the habit of it - I tend to use "Thank you for..." instead of "good boy" and "That's right" or some kind of comment about whatever it is DS is telling/showing me rather than just "Well done".

With instructions it's similar - you can start even when they're tiny, not just saying "No" but "careful" or "hot" or "Don't touch" and when they get a bit older trying to stick to the positive instruction like "Stay on the pavement" rather than "Don't go on the road" - it's also more instructive since not being on the road could mean the kerb is okay, or the grass, or that little low wall (which might actually be okay but you can negotiate easier if you're starting from a position of nowhere but the pavement.) I suppose points 3 and 4 are linked. So again, focus on what you want rather than what you don't want. It can also help especially with toddlers to instruct in advance/tell them what to expect, e.g. saying a few minutes before you get to a busy road that when you get there, they will need to go in the pushchair.

5. Look past the immediate behaviour.
Why are they behaving in this way? Immediate points to consider:
  • Are they tired, hungry, hot or hormonal?
  • Are you any of the above and so over-reacting?
  • Is there anything else going on, even if it seems unrelated, that might be worrying them?
  • Are you assuming adult priorities onto a child who might find something more important or more scary than you do?
  • Have they got this behaviour from somewhere else?
  • Are your expectations too high?


None of these are a total excuse but should shape the way you deal with things. It's also why things like reward charts etc aren't always helpful because they don't address why something isn't happening in the first place.

(Sorry this is so long Blush)
OP posts:
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poppyboo · 20/07/2012 13:20

Just wanted to say Playful Parenting is an excellent book and so is Simplicity Parenting.
I have had great success with special time ( alone time with each child regularly with each child) with my children which has stopped sibling fighting in its tracks. It makes me so happy that something so positive can have such beautiful results :)

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poppyboo · 20/07/2012 13:27

I parent without punishment or rewards but I'm not a UP mum as such, I went down that track with my youngest and stuff was bad for months, I found because of her personality she needed some boundaries too, some firmness. I think you can set limits without punishing or rewarding. On the other hand I don't 'make' my children do stuff either, using force IYKWIM? It's hard to explain. I think having strong routines can be of enormous help. We also have minimal/basic toys and the kids are TV free which helps keep everything calm.

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poppyboo · 20/07/2012 13:31

If you want to read more about UP, Raising our children, Raising ourselves ( I think that is the title) is a good book, Unconditional Parenting is also another title. Unconditional Parenting is what gave me all the trouble with my youngest though, it sent me down the wrong path. I lean more towards calm and gentle parenting I think if I was to describe the type of parenting I aspire too.

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poppyboo · 20/07/2012 13:33

Sorry to post so much, I'm passionate about learning about parenting styles and parent/child relationship.

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ClimbingPenguin · 20/07/2012 13:35

a simple 'DD did it' makes DD very proud of herself

i find that the most helpful part of routine is having certain scripts for events/tasks, this is what I think makes transitions alright for DD.

If course I'm sure it will all be different for DS

now if someone here can locate either of my two slings so we can head to the supermarket, I would be most grateful

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poppyboo · 20/07/2012 13:38

This is my must have parenting book too
www.amazon.co.uk/Hold-Your-Kids-Parents-Matter/dp/0375760288/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342787830&sr=1-1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21
It will be on my bed side table until the kids leave home!

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OstrichSized · 20/07/2012 15:23

Interesting about the over-praising. I like praising but will just keep an eye on myself for not praising her for ridiculous things. Caught myself today saying 'good girl' for pointing out a picture of a carrot. So I asked her then if she liked them and she pretended to gobble them up. It's nearly absentmindedly I'm using it, like a pat on the head and off I go on my own business instead of listening to her.

We did potty training last week and it all clicked on day 3. We had tried it when she was 2 but had no luck. The good weather helped as I was able to leave her without undies (everything was wet) and that made her realise what was going on. I heaped the praise on her when she used the potty the first few days but didn't use any rewards. We even had a few dry nights too. But I'm sticking with nappies for nighttime until it's more regular for her.

I made no fuss about accidents, just said 'oopps, accidents happen' and moved her to the potty to finish up.

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naturalbaby · 20/07/2012 15:27

marking my place to read up and ask for advice on my (nearly) 3yr old hitting his brothers.

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GoodButNotOutstanding · 20/07/2012 16:02

We're doing well. Only 1 wet accident so far and that was probably my fault for taking her out on the first day of training, she was too busy and distracted to realise she needed to go.

poppy I've read the UP book and the hold onto your kids one too and have just ordered the simplicity parenting one. Great minds think alike Grin

Ostrich I find not praising very difficult too, as you say it's an absentminded thing. I always have to make a conscious effort not to use the phrase 'good girl' and say something else instead. We're sort of conditioned into it as everyone does it, especially in schools (I'm a teacher so am surrounded by it every day)

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wilderumpus · 20/07/2012 16:13

we are potty training too! was going so well but he seems bored by having to go to the loo/potty now and can't pull his pants down himself so is happy to have accidents. Am even wondering whether to quit for now, but if he is nekkid he happily trots to the potty himself. I even bought buttons to start bribery... until I realised that every time he didn't go to the loo when we thought he needed to he would feel like a failure! poor mite. so I scoffed them instead as a reward for myself Any tips welcome :)

have realised that actually I don't praise all the time, or if I do i do actually qualify why I am saying something, which I didn't realise until this thread made me pay attention to myself more. I don't often say 'good boy'. I only have the one DS though, with more I can imagine being more absent minded.

I want some more parenting books :) (poor DH, he doesn't get it at all!) will have a look through the recommendations. Have the UP book... do like it but I do need more boundaries than he suggests (boundary testing toddler atm and I do believe boundaries make them feel secure in an ever changing world), though for older kids might use it more.

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poppyboo · 20/07/2012 17:44

My smallest one really needed boundaries wilder, she was floundering sound without them, I think she wanted a mummy to be in charge, to know what was happening to feel safe. I love,love,love simplicity parenting, I can't recommend it highly enough...& Hold on to your kids. Grin

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poppyboo · 20/07/2012 17:47

Around not sound, damn auto check

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poppyboo · 20/07/2012 17:48

Good enjoy simplicity Parenting!

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GoodButNotOutstanding · 20/07/2012 17:59

wilde dd can manage the pants and trousers down easily, so she's spent almost all day sitting herself on and off the potty, she thinks it's a great novelty atm. Not sure how long that will last and not sure how it will go at the cm's house where there are other children to distract her and she has to ask because the potty is in the toilet (due to a smaller toddler who moves everything and wears potties as hats). We'll find out when she goes there on Tuesday (she's going one day a week throughout the holidays so she keeps up the relationship with the cm and with the other children, not because I don't want to spend time with her).

I don't remember the UP book being particularly anti-boundaries but it's a while since I read it now (and I have a tendency to take what I like and make up the rest). Simplicity Parenting arrived this afternoon so I'll start reading that in the next few days.

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poppyboo · 20/07/2012 18:27

Good about the boundaries, I remember the paragraph in the book where the child didn't want to get in car seat in petrol station (I think ) & the author suggested parent sitting down and waiting until child was ready to get in now matter how long it took, it just didn't sit right with me. I just don't see how things would work once child started pre-school etc in the real world I guess. A teacher isn't going to wait 15 mins until a child decides to sit down for example. Maybe I just have bad feelings about the book and it sent me and my daughter on the wrong path for us. I'm much more into gentle parenting, no shouting, making demands etc, just trying to lead by example and keeping stuff as calm as possible. I hate raised voices, it's so stressful. It's a thing I hate. Simplicity parenting addresses the home environment and how to make home life run smoothly, too much of everything creates stress, too many toys, too much scheduled activity etc

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ClimbingPenguin · 20/07/2012 18:31

The UP book was good for giving reasons not to do stuff, but not so good about what to do. Still worth it though, my LLL had it in their library so I borrowed it from there.

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BertieBotts · 20/07/2012 19:37

mistressploppy Please don't feel bad! :( Judging and "getting it right" was never meant to be the focus of this thread. It's just about sharing thoughts and ideas, there is no rule that says you have to follow 100%, just take what works for you and if you want to combine with, say, positive parenting (highlight the good rather than punishing bad - which is perhaps what you were thinking of originally?) or removing toys or whatever you like, that's fine too. The thread is geared up in a way that you'll probably come across arguments against these things but you don't have to agree! :)

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wilderumpus · 20/07/2012 19:47

good I have probably got it wrong but from my reading of the UP book it was generally stressed that the child lead a lot and be involved in lots of decisions, even re: bedtime etc. I like to set my own rules about this, we have a good routine (though routine only kicked in as and when necessary so was led by him in a way). Sometimes I think we all like to feel someone is in charge.

And btw I also would send my toddler to the cm through the hols as he adores her and her kids and to take him away would be awful! they are like extended family to him. She has been ace helping potty train him (and is very UP, I love her!)

I will get simplicity parenting :) thanks for the heads up poppy

mistress nothing is 'wrong'! I don't know about everyone else but I always feel my parenting is wrong and strive to learn how to do it better and meet the needs of my child in the best way possible. Am a parenting geek! Just wanting to know how to parent in a kind way means you must be pretty nifty? And TBH the praising thing is a tricky one I think we have found.

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ClimbingPenguin · 20/07/2012 20:33

i think it is impossible rare to get through a day as a parent without there being something you know you could have done better

ps

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Mayamama · 20/07/2012 21:47

poppyboo, thanks for sharing those! Hold your kids seems like the next one I need -- it chimes well with me as I am made increasingly uncomfortable by the amounting criticism on attachment parenting as somehow generating dependent children (which I totally disagree with, but this book offers another reason why such criticism is shortsighted!).

Can I add another book? It is Aletha Solter's "Helping young children flourish" - it is generally very UP, and some of the ideas Solter has developed in the 80s are also in the "Raising" book that you mention (strange how some parenting books offer no references!). Its central idea revolves around creating safe environment for children to release emotions and I have found it incredibly helpful.

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mistressploppy · 20/07/2012 22:36

Hi Penguin! Nice to see you mate

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poppyboo · 21/07/2012 07:59

maya hello! You're going to love Hold On To Your Kids, I kept saying 'yes!' with each page I turned.
Thank you for the book suggestion!

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GoodButNotOutstanding · 21/07/2012 15:49

Obviously I ignored the bits i didn't agree with in the UP book then Blush. I have routines and things that have to be done in our house, most of those have been set by me (or dp sometimes, but mostly me) although we do take the dds feelings and opinions into account.

wilde my cm is absolutely fab too. I was out last night with some of the other teachers from work and they were talking about the cm they all use and I would not be happy with her at all, but I love mine to bits, she does things almost exactly the way I like to think I would if I was at home all the time. I don't feel guilty at all about sending her through the hols but some people irl like to judge me for it, thinking it's so I don't have to spend time with dd rather than thinking how horrible it would be for such a small child to have 6 weeks apart from her 'second mum' (or possibly 3rd mum as dd1 seems to think she's another parent to dd2).

ploppy As the others have said, we all do things 'wrong'. For example, today I have left dp to do all the parenting while I stayed in bed til midday nursing a massive hangover (the first one I have had since dd2 was concieved), and even now I am up I am still ignoring both of them in favour of mn Blush. I honestly think that everyone who is interested in improving their parenting is already doing a fairly decent job of it. IME the parents that aren't doing it very well generally don't care about trying to improve anything :(

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carocaro · 21/07/2012 16:37

I think the older they get the easier it is to use these methods, they understand more and can see it a more rounded way.

I don't think punishment eg: sit on the naughty step and reward eg: here is a sticker are the best ways to describe situations such as this, actions and consequences are more widely descriptive.

I get more from both my boys (5 & 10) when I ask them to go away and think about why when something has occured. One thing I have learned is not to shout, it really diffuses the situation otherwise if can just esculate to insanity. Of course I shout sometimes but it generally gets no where!

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