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Parenting without punishments/rewards support thread

255 replies

BertieBotts · 15/07/2012 22:45

Come on, it's about time we had a new one of these Grin Whatever label you want to stick on it, unconditional parenting, gentle discipline, or just avoiding carrot or stick methods as much as possible in favour of a more co-operative approach, it works. (Personally I don't like the gentle label because I think that it's perfectly possible to be as firm as you like using these kinds of methods and "gentle" implies wishy-washiness.)

Not intended to be a debate thread, but a support/questions thread. Curiosity welcomed, outright "My way is better" posts not.

I promised a while ago I'd write up the basic principles that I try to stick to so hopefully this will help as a starting point as well as a reference.

1. Punishments are not always bad.
Sounds totally non intuitive, I know considering the thread title. The point is that punishment for punishment's sake is what's bad, or counterproductive, at least, but you shouldn't be afraid to do something which might upset your child if it's necessary to the situation. Try to ask yourself before you impose something:

  • Is this helping the immediate situation, or physically preventing the situation from reoccurring?
  • Is this helping my DC learn what's actually wrong with what they did?
  • Is this helping make things right? (NOT in an eye-for-an-eye way!)
  • Is this just to make me feel better?
  • Is there an alternative which would achieve the same goal with less bad feeling?

2. Don't take it personally.
When your child is playing up, it's not because they are out to get you, and it's probably not a power battle, despite what all the expert opinions seem to be. They are reacting in the way they are reacting because that is the best way they know to deal with that situation, whatever it might be.

Even if they've done something deliberately hurtful or spiteful, look for the reason behind that - it's more likely to be a misguided attempt to express an emotion, e.g. anger, jealousy, upset, and it's possible to convey "Actually, that isn't acceptable" at the same time as dealing with the feeling behind the actions - in fact it's often more important to deal with the feeling first and the action later, especially if you're feeling you want them to suffer, "pay" or feel bad for what they've done. You can't induce guilt by punishing, it's more likely to induce resentment.

3. Show them what you want.
Both at crisis point and in everyday life, so, again, something often considered a punishment e.g. time out can work well here as long as you aren't threatening it or attaching negative connotations to it - just showing them "You are angry/excited/silly/winding each other up and I need you to take a breather" until they can do that for themselves.

In everyday life - model the behaviour that you want. If you slip into something you don't want them to model, like shouting, apologise as soon as you realise even if it's after the fact. Respond if they ask you to stop shouting, and own it, don't make them responsible for it (by saying things like "If you'd just listen, I wouldn't have to shout". Grown ups screw up too, and they need to see you deal with that graciously if they are to learn to do the same.

Listen to their requests and acknowledge them (which doesn't mean agree) if you want them to listen to you, don't belittle their feelings if you want them to be empathetic, say please and thank you and sorry. Negotiate but be firm.

4. Be specific with instructions or praise.
Linking back to the UP theory that rewards/praise can be harmful, especially if they are too non specific, try to steer clear of "stock praise" like good girl/boy, well done, etc. It's fairly easy once you get into the habit of it - I tend to use "Thank you for..." instead of "good boy" and "That's right" or some kind of comment about whatever it is DS is telling/showing me rather than just "Well done".

With instructions it's similar - you can start even when they're tiny, not just saying "No" but "careful" or "hot" or "Don't touch" and when they get a bit older trying to stick to the positive instruction like "Stay on the pavement" rather than "Don't go on the road" - it's also more instructive since not being on the road could mean the kerb is okay, or the grass, or that little low wall (which might actually be okay but you can negotiate easier if you're starting from a position of nowhere but the pavement.) I suppose points 3 and 4 are linked. So again, focus on what you want rather than what you don't want. It can also help especially with toddlers to instruct in advance/tell them what to expect, e.g. saying a few minutes before you get to a busy road that when you get there, they will need to go in the pushchair.

5. Look past the immediate behaviour.
Why are they behaving in this way? Immediate points to consider:

  • Are they tired, hungry, hot or hormonal?
  • Are you any of the above and so over-reacting?
  • Is there anything else going on, even if it seems unrelated, that might be worrying them?
  • Are you assuming adult priorities onto a child who might find something more important or more scary than you do?
  • Have they got this behaviour from somewhere else?
  • Are your expectations too high?

None of these are a total excuse but should shape the way you deal with things. It's also why things like reward charts etc aren't always helpful because they don't address why something isn't happening in the first place.

(Sorry this is so long Blush)

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
mistressploppy · 17/07/2012 10:26

Marking place, all seems very interesting

wilderumpus · 17/07/2012 11:04

Thanks bertie. I shall have a ponder. Thinking about it she does tend to hide on a kitchen chair under the table where she can't be seen... but maybe that isn't good enough for her. hmm.

blossom when DH is overly disciplining DS (no smacking but just saying non UP things) I just tell him! And explain why it is inappropriate and what effect it will have. then I might say what is better to do. Am pretty bossy and don't like it but am determined to treat DS right.

If your gentle way works I am sure your DH will follow suit as am sure no parent likes to hit and shout if they can avoid it :)

Does your DH read at all? There is a book called the science of parenting which shows what happens to a child's brain if you are shouty and the positive effects of gentle discipline. Also clearly explains why children are the way they are sometimes. Is not a proper book (like the UP one), lots of pictures! Grin

can I just say that I am SO happy that there is this thread :)

WhispersOfWickedness · 17/07/2012 12:48

Ah ha, this is what I need! Will try and be back this evening for a longer post Smile

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

ClimbingPenguin · 17/07/2012 13:03

angel developement stage it may be, but this is normal for DS

like bertie supermarkets we just avoided for a while, or did lots of little ones so bread from X on way to playgroup one day and so on. Been taking her for the past few weeks and she is OK. About 6 months ago it required lots of food (apples are great). She is often heard shouting for things we are looking for. I still do some shopping after they are in bed as it makes for some good alone time. Is he too heavy for a back carry or do I remember you being pg?

Also agree with cats (or small baby siblings), mostly saying the word when showing it, and specific instruction. DD only strokes animals on their side mostly. for example she wanted to bounce DS when he was younger, 'gentle bouncing' didn't really register but 'one finger bouncing' did.

I liked the adventures in gentle discipline book

the thing i would like to do more of is talking about things before/later at a calm time, haven't got that into a habbit yet and it does make a difference.

with DH i struggle that he is too quick to praise. i suffered from that as a child so I have gone over those implications and it slowly getting better. I do tell him as long as I have a reason, which sometimes takes a while to articulate. For DH i think he uses praise as a way of showing love (and also he thinks she is the prettiest most clever person ever) so I need to show him other ways he can express it. Ideas welcome

wilderumpus · 17/07/2012 14:02

oh heck I over-praise like loon. But then he is only 2 and I am his mum, am I not meant to? And I generally talk too much.

Having said that, I would like to learn how not to praise so much.

And also, if the picture they show you proudly is a bit shit, as 2 year old drawings inevitably are, what do you say other than 'oooh! How smashing!'?! Isn't even saying 'ooh i like this swirl here' a kind of praise (and probably a fib because really, do you like it?!)?

help!

GoodButNotOutstanding · 17/07/2012 16:50

(I'm Jodidi in disguise)

I think teaching how to interact with the cat is a great idea, as well as some alone space. Those worked really well for my sister when her 2 girls were younger and tormenting the cat. She had the cat's bed upstairs (so the girls couldn't get past the stair gate) and on to of a wardrobe (so even if the girls were upstairs they couldn't get at the cat's bed). She spent a lot of time teaching them how to stroke gently too. Her parenting style doesn't usually gel very well with mine but I remember thinking she did very well with getting the kids to be nice to the cat (apart from the memorable time when her youngest deliberately weed on the cat just to see what it did Shock)

With regards to praise, I think I'm fighting a losing battle about that. Dd1 (age 12) seems to get nothing but praise at school, like we had to go to a prize giving ceremony last night because she'd won a Maths prize. She laps up all the praise she can get about everything, mostly academic success where she wants to be the best in the year group. I try not to praise her too much but then to her it sounds like she never gets anything right, it feels like a very difficult balancing act.
Dd2 (age 2y4m) gets lots of praise too. She's with the childminder full time during term time, and the cm has had about 25 years of saying 'good girl/boy' to the children she minds, so there's a lot of that when dd2 does something that is approved of. Dp also seems to lapse into 'good girl' mode, even though I have told him loads of times that if he wants to praise her he should at least be specific about what is being praised, but I would prefer not to praise. I personally quite like to ask dd2 if she likes her picture, or if she's enjoyed doing the painting, or if she feels proud of herself, rather than telling her what I am pretending to like about whatever she's made. A jolly 'you did that yourself' seems to mean the world to her, much more than 'well done'.

Supermarkets are hell for us atm too. Dd2 absolutely loves coming shopping with me and won't contemplate the far easier option of staying at home with daddy. She comes to 'help' which means she picks up food we don't need (donuts this week), she runs off giggling and shouting 'come and catch me', she has tantrums in the middle of the aisles, she moves the trolley while I'm picking things up and runs into people. I just go with the flow, tell her what she should be doing (which she mostly ignores) and apologise to people as we go, most people are reasonably understanding and the ones that aren't, well, I've apologised before they even complain so they don't get too nasty about it (but maybe they bitch about me once I'm out of earshot)

SeagullsAreLikeThat · 17/07/2012 22:13

Just marking place as really interested in, and motivated by, other people's experiences. I've done a fair bit of reading on this recently after realising I was turning into the kind of shouty mother I vowed I'd never be and when I remember to use the techniques, they work so well and the DCs respond so positively but it's remembering in the heat of the moment to pause for breath and take the calm, reasonable route instead of the yelling route. I have a lot of guilt over the frustration I sometimes vented verbally towards DS2 when he was a baby (extremely difficult baby especially when compared to a very easy DS1) and am really concerned that it may have had a long term impact. More so having read the comment about the changes shouting can cause in the child's brain Sad. Trying hard to make up for it by fostering a relationship of mutual respect and empathy but really hope the damage isn't done.

WowOoo · 17/07/2012 22:30

Seagulls - it's all about now and what you do now. I've shouted at both my dc when they were little and I think it's ok. (was going through bereavements with both so I've forgiven myself!)

It's hard and we're human aren't we?

Thanks for this BertieB

I think a lot has to be said for stories and wind down time. I love having a little chat and 'remember today you did this and your little brother cried and...' etc
They are so keen not to go to sleep at bedtime, mine will chat about anything.

By the way when my 6 yr old does a crap picture I say 'what the heck is that meant to be?' We have a laugh about it. He takes his art quite seriously though, sometimes i am at a loss what to say.

Shakey1500 · 17/07/2012 22:39

Grin at "what the heck is that meant to be?" Love it!

We do a little "reasons to be happy" thing on the way home from school where we take turns. For example "It's not cold today-yay!" "It's so and so's party tomorrow-yay!" I try to include a small "We are all healthy" and "We have food to eat" inbetween all the personal stuff (hoping it sinks in on some level!)

This is intermingled with "reasons to be sad" (at which point we do a comedy slouch and sad face) sooooo "It's bath night" (he hates baths) etc. I hope this gives him a reason to feel he can tell me about sad things at a given time sort of thing.

goodasgold · 18/07/2012 03:17

For any new parents I would recommend 'baby watching' by Desmond Morris. And a lot of best wishes, it's not easy to rise above it, but when you can results follow.

SeagullsAreLikeThat · 18/07/2012 07:18

WowOoo - thank you for that, that helps a lot.

Shakey - I love the idea of things to be happy and sad about, what a brilliant way to learn to accept and express emotions.

One that worked for me: DS1 has been going to nursery for 3 years and still says every day that he hates it. Every nursery morning I used to try to spin it positively and talk about al the great things he would be doing and how much fun he would have but he was still miserable.

Then I read that sometimes it's better to just accept their feelings and empathise with them. So when he was protesting about going into nursery, I would tell him how much I didn't want to go to work either, and I wished it was still the weekend so we could be together, or that I didn't have to work so he could stay home all week, and bizarrely it worked - he would then go in quite happily. I think all he wanted was acceptance of his feelings.

AngelDog · 18/07/2012 08:03

Thanks for the supermarket sympathy. Sadly DS is too heavy for a back carry for more than 15 mins and yes, I'm pg or I might try it at the point where he kicks off.

I need to remember to take food for me as well - I'm sure part of the problem is that by the time it happens, I'm cross and hungry and wanting to dash round the last bit so I can get home and cook tea. Blush

The one thing I usually can manage is to hold it together while I pack the shopping - DS has his own 'credit' card which I give him to insert into the PIN machine, which usually keeps him occupied.

wilde, I didn't do the link I wrote on the 2.5/3 year thing for you: it's here.

My DH is learning how to praise better. He's go to the stage of saying, "Well done, those are really good wheels you've drawn," which is a start, even if not quite what I'd say. (Mine would be something like, "What a lot of wheels you've drawn! And I can see how you've drawn the circular shapes here and here." Or I'd comment on how long his lines were, or what colours he used, or something like that. But it helps that I have to be specific as DS gets really frustrated if the thing he's drawn doesn't look enough like what he wanted it to - so he wouldn't be fobbed off with a generalised 'that's lovely' unless it was actually really good.)

One piece of praise that DS likes to hear is, "You managed it!" when he has been trying to do something on his own.

blossombath, another good not-too-way-out book would be Elizabeth Pantley's No-Cry Discipline Solution. It's not as extreme as, say, Alfie Kohn (it includes strategies like time out) but is good at the practical stuff.

wilderumpus · 18/07/2012 17:49

oh the supermarket situations sound very difficult. I feed mine in the trolley to placate his boredom but mostly shop online tbh.

I have put yopur advices into action ladies. the cat has a space to hang out in my office (have cleaned all my papers away especially) where DS is forbidden to enter. And I have been showing DS how to play with the cat; when he starts being crazy around her I get him to play with a ball or dangly stick thing for her instead and so far it is working :) And then I get to tell him how much she is enjoying playing with him which will help their bond... hurrah!

thanks for the link angel

waves at good! hello lady!

missjackson · 18/07/2012 21:52

Place-marking... Something I really struggle with is wanting to over-control my children when we are out with friends - mine are always the wildest/ most lively/ the ones walking up the slide. My instinct is usually not to interfere unless someone is getting hurt or in danger of getting hurt, and let them get on with it, pick my battles etc, but sometimes when other mums are present, I find myself saying things just for their sake really... I know I should trust my instincts and prioritise my kids and what I feel is right for them, but I fear I am a classic result of an over-punishment/ over-praise upbringing myself - a people pleaser - I really want different for my kids!

BertieBotts · 18/07/2012 21:58

That's great wildrumpus!! Although, knowing cats, I suspect she may have preferred her sleeping place to contain all of your important papers Grin

Sorry to not comment on every post - I'm utterly knackered at the moment.

OP posts:
wilderumpus · 19/07/2012 11:13

haha miss I am the same. What is worse though are the parents who tell their kids what to do on the playing equipment! how controlling is that?! and why aren't they sat on the bench supping tea and gossiping like me? It's our time off!

Ahem cat update: she has decided she really, really wants to sleep in the radiator bed in the sitting room. I think the office is too lonely for her (she is going through a needy phase! Doesn't leave me alone!) So obviously she is still a target for the Toddler of Doom. But then if she doesn't move, maybe she doesn't mind? Maybe I should leave them to negotiate their own relationship more? She doesn't get angry with him, just looks resigned. Poor kitty.

OstrichSized · 19/07/2012 11:59

I'd like to join too. Have a 2.6 year old and a 6 month old. I've noticed I'm becoming shouty in the past month and don't want to be like this.

So I'm waiting for 'Playful Parenting' and 'How to talk to kids' to come in the post.

What's the theory behind not over-praising? I haven't heard that one before and am definitely guilty of it.

DD has just started acting up in the supermarket. I know exactly why, the supermarket did a rejiggle of all their ailses and the summer toys are in the very first ailse. (how do you spell that word?) So naturally she wants to stay there and play with everything. Who wouldn't?

DH grew up in a non shouty family so he's stays calm but I didn't and feel the pressure of two causing me to slip into my mother's parenting style. I'm a sahm and live in the wilderness so we don't go to playgroups or nursery.

Marking my place here as this is really the parenting style I'm aspiring to.

RedHotPokers · 19/07/2012 19:45

Great thread. I am a shouter Sad. I really try not to be, but that's how it ends up!

Bathtimes are the worst. I have a 5yo (nearly 6) and a 3yo, and by the time it gets to bath time, they just don't listen to a word I say. Ignore simple requests, fight, splash everywhere, generally are totally frenzied and cheeky.

I KNOW 6pm onwards is a bad time for me parenting wise. I am mostly patient and tolerant in the day, but come early evening, my fuse is pretty short.

Unfortunately DH is working late currently, so I'm on my own for bath/bed, and we are now on our third night of no book before bed Sad. Will reread the OP later, and maybe blow the dust off a parenting book or two tonight.

I think my trigger is having to repeat myself 20 times, whilst feeling like I am the invisible woman! Need to count to ten, and act more constructively and effectively!

FiveHoursSleep · 19/07/2012 19:48

Redhotpokers I have 4 and am exactly the same. I go from calm on the surface but boiling underneath to a raging loonie in about 30 seconds. It's horrible :(

RedHotPokers · 19/07/2012 19:55

That's so true Five. The longer I remain calm for, the more cross I get eventually IYSWIM!! It's like I think 'I've been calm, I've tried to empathise, I've been generous (extra toys in bath, extra time etc) I've given warnings (in 2 minutes we're getting out and dried) and it's made not one iota of difference to the end result'.

Then I blow right into the 'that's it, I've had enough', and then its a spiral into disaster!

FiveHoursSleep · 19/07/2012 20:06

My thoughts exactly. And now it's the holidays and I have 7 weeks of trying to keep my temper.

KD0706 · 19/07/2012 23:15

Marking my place. It's late and I really must sleep but I'm v interested in this. Though I do have a tendency to become grumpy mum after enduring hours of toddler winge-ing!!

GoodButNotOutstanding · 20/07/2012 11:14

Ostrich the theory behind not over-praising is that kids end up doing things just because they are praised for doing it and like being praised, rather than doing things just because they enjoy doing it/it is the right thing to do. I don't know anyone irl that doesn't use praise to encourage 'good behaviour' but I'm trying. I find myself just describing what dd2 has done and we talk about it (in a very basic way as she's only 2) same as we do for bad behaviour, I describe what happened and we talk about how people felt. Everyone else falls back on 'good girl' a lot though so she's getting both really.

Does anyone have any good tips for potty training? We've started properly this morning. She's been using the potty on and off since about Feb, we started trying properly in the Easter holidays but I had other things to deal with then so we put her back in nappies til I felt ready to do it properly again. So now it's the summer hols, I have 6 weeks holiday to do it. So far all we've really done is get her to choose her own 'big girl pants' so pink and sparkly Peppa Pig it is. She's now wearing these from this morning and she's done 2 wees on the potty this morning and no accidents yet Smile With dd1 she had a sticker chart, but I don't want to do that with dd2, so it's just a happy 'you did a wee' that she's getting.

ClimbingPenguin · 20/07/2012 12:23

also with over praising, people become reluctant to take risks (for fear of performing badly) and over time often end up performing worse. Can feed into imposter syndrome plus people think they are liked for performing well so still very much conditional parenting 'i love you and give you praise only when you perform well' type thing.

erm potty training. With DD i did use bribery Blush even though I generally don't like it. My reasoning was I couldn't think of a reason why she should so I provided one. Ours was chocolate milk. Although we moved onto needin to do wee's and poo's in potty so we don't get sore like we do in nappies and when out and about needing to tell mummy we need a wee otherwise we'll have to go home and get some dry trousers.

She is 2.4 and we seemed to have cracked the majority of it within a week although there was no progress for three days until it just clicked. We have about one wet accident a week and never had a issue with poo so far

I also find I am fine and then suddenly not. For me it tends to fall apart if DS is crying, I think part of me takes it out on her as a more safe option. i just try to pre-empt and slowly overriding my thinking. If I find I am having to repeat myself then I tend to either firm up or let it go. we have a lot of 'initial request' followed by 'if you don't do X then I will do Y, then count to 5'. I'm not sure where it falls under this parenting ethos but I feel I am giving her a bit of space and another chance and I try to use it sparingly.

If she isn't putting her shoes on, then she knows her feet hurt when walking outside. So we do say we are not going out until, but I am also blase about it. This works for us as (i) we haven't had a big multi hour drawn out saga about it - normally a few mins and (ii) it doesn't effect me if we don't leave at X time. We are not in school years yet. If I do need to go, then she gets bundles into the car and shoes go in boot or car seat, or sometimes let her walk until she asks for the shoes.

we don't have bathtime every day, and mostly we have showers for which we do a countdown from 10 when it time to stop.

mistressploppy · 20/07/2012 13:12

Ok, I've been lurking and reading the thread after my initial post on it and now I realise I've been doing it all wrong Sad

I didn't know that praising was wrong Shock. I knew that shouting wasn't a great idea and have always tried to avoid it (but failed lots)

I think I need a book

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