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Parenting without punishments/rewards support thread

255 replies

BertieBotts · 15/07/2012 22:45

Come on, it's about time we had a new one of these Grin Whatever label you want to stick on it, unconditional parenting, gentle discipline, or just avoiding carrot or stick methods as much as possible in favour of a more co-operative approach, it works. (Personally I don't like the gentle label because I think that it's perfectly possible to be as firm as you like using these kinds of methods and "gentle" implies wishy-washiness.)

Not intended to be a debate thread, but a support/questions thread. Curiosity welcomed, outright "My way is better" posts not.

I promised a while ago I'd write up the basic principles that I try to stick to so hopefully this will help as a starting point as well as a reference.

1. Punishments are not always bad.
Sounds totally non intuitive, I know considering the thread title. The point is that punishment for punishment's sake is what's bad, or counterproductive, at least, but you shouldn't be afraid to do something which might upset your child if it's necessary to the situation. Try to ask yourself before you impose something:

  • Is this helping the immediate situation, or physically preventing the situation from reoccurring?
  • Is this helping my DC learn what's actually wrong with what they did?
  • Is this helping make things right? (NOT in an eye-for-an-eye way!)
  • Is this just to make me feel better?
  • Is there an alternative which would achieve the same goal with less bad feeling?

2. Don't take it personally.
When your child is playing up, it's not because they are out to get you, and it's probably not a power battle, despite what all the expert opinions seem to be. They are reacting in the way they are reacting because that is the best way they know to deal with that situation, whatever it might be.

Even if they've done something deliberately hurtful or spiteful, look for the reason behind that - it's more likely to be a misguided attempt to express an emotion, e.g. anger, jealousy, upset, and it's possible to convey "Actually, that isn't acceptable" at the same time as dealing with the feeling behind the actions - in fact it's often more important to deal with the feeling first and the action later, especially if you're feeling you want them to suffer, "pay" or feel bad for what they've done. You can't induce guilt by punishing, it's more likely to induce resentment.

3. Show them what you want.
Both at crisis point and in everyday life, so, again, something often considered a punishment e.g. time out can work well here as long as you aren't threatening it or attaching negative connotations to it - just showing them "You are angry/excited/silly/winding each other up and I need you to take a breather" until they can do that for themselves.

In everyday life - model the behaviour that you want. If you slip into something you don't want them to model, like shouting, apologise as soon as you realise even if it's after the fact. Respond if they ask you to stop shouting, and own it, don't make them responsible for it (by saying things like "If you'd just listen, I wouldn't have to shout". Grown ups screw up too, and they need to see you deal with that graciously if they are to learn to do the same.

Listen to their requests and acknowledge them (which doesn't mean agree) if you want them to listen to you, don't belittle their feelings if you want them to be empathetic, say please and thank you and sorry. Negotiate but be firm.

4. Be specific with instructions or praise.
Linking back to the UP theory that rewards/praise can be harmful, especially if they are too non specific, try to steer clear of "stock praise" like good girl/boy, well done, etc. It's fairly easy once you get into the habit of it - I tend to use "Thank you for..." instead of "good boy" and "That's right" or some kind of comment about whatever it is DS is telling/showing me rather than just "Well done".

With instructions it's similar - you can start even when they're tiny, not just saying "No" but "careful" or "hot" or "Don't touch" and when they get a bit older trying to stick to the positive instruction like "Stay on the pavement" rather than "Don't go on the road" - it's also more instructive since not being on the road could mean the kerb is okay, or the grass, or that little low wall (which might actually be okay but you can negotiate easier if you're starting from a position of nowhere but the pavement.) I suppose points 3 and 4 are linked. So again, focus on what you want rather than what you don't want. It can also help especially with toddlers to instruct in advance/tell them what to expect, e.g. saying a few minutes before you get to a busy road that when you get there, they will need to go in the pushchair.

5. Look past the immediate behaviour.
Why are they behaving in this way? Immediate points to consider:

  • Are they tired, hungry, hot or hormonal?
  • Are you any of the above and so over-reacting?
  • Is there anything else going on, even if it seems unrelated, that might be worrying them?
  • Are you assuming adult priorities onto a child who might find something more important or more scary than you do?
  • Have they got this behaviour from somewhere else?
  • Are your expectations too high?

None of these are a total excuse but should shape the way you deal with things. It's also why things like reward charts etc aren't always helpful because they don't address why something isn't happening in the first place.

(Sorry this is so long Blush)

OP posts:
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FSB · 22/07/2012 06:39

i really love the idea of this parenting style, and have tried as hard as possible to make sure DD isn't afraid of me... but, having been brought up in a very shouty, emotionally controlling household, i find it a constant struggle not to turn into my mother :(

is it more damaging to be inconsistent, or better to try this approach for as much of the time as you can?

DH and i have always gone to great lengths to explain things and give DD (3yo) options/ timings etc but i'm not doing very well at it at the moment, because we've just moved abroad and i'm currently a SAHM for the first time since she was 10mo and get very irritated by some of her (totally normal) toddler-isms

i'm worried that it's more confusing, and is resulting in her being a badly behaved threenager because i'm not able to be as patient and consistent as i should be...

EdithWeston · 22/07/2012 07:04

Can anyone point to "punishment for punishment's sake" being part of any mainstream UK parenting theory in the last century or so?

It seems odd, indeed objectionable, for a reference to a non-existent theory to have such prominence in OP.

But you can instead look to mainstream , really very hearty, pRenting manuals which were/are enormously popular, such as "Toddler Taming" to find whole sections on the root of "discipline" being the same as "disciple" and how it is all about learning.

So I'm less sure that a "specialist" support thread is needed, as what is being discussed here is normal, ordinary, unexceptional parenting. Especially when you look at TA textbooks, which show how parental attention (positive or negative) is the greatest reward/punishment going (also in Toddler Taming).

raininginbaltimore · 22/07/2012 08:11

Glad of this thread. I like the idea of UP but in reality I can't follow it to letter.

Ds is 2.10 and I have found acknowledging his feelings good. So when he doesn't want to go to bed, I acknowledge that and we talk about how everyone has to go bed, and sometimes we have to do things we don't like.

I am considering a sticker chart for early waking. It goes against everything I want to do, but can't think what else. Since we ditched dummy, he has been walking earlier. He has to light in his room, he has a gro clock, but it has stopped working.

He can play by himself, he loves it at any other time of day, just not 5.30am! Any other suggestions that might fit more?

I love the honesty of this thread though. Too often websites for UP just seem to perfect!

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

BertieBotts · 22/07/2012 09:08

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant Edith - I'm not referring to "daily beatings just in case" kind of thing, more behaviourist theory which relies heavily on rewards or punishments to achieve results. For example with biting - many people think that you need to punish the biter so that they associate biting with something unpleasant, whether that's loss of attention, being removed from an activity they like, or hitting/biting back. But actually you can get results by just offering an alternative to bite and emphasising that THIS is acceptable, biting people ISN'T. And often, people do this, but also back it up with a punishment for biting a person. Which is fine - but it's not what we're discussing here.

Another example of what I mean would be putting a child in time out/on the naughty step for not listening to instructions or for throwing food. It's punishment for the sake of punishing, because it has no relevance to the action and doesn't directly teach them anything at all. The point/use of it, again, is to connect the bad/wrong action with something unpleasant, which is not supported in the theories mentioned at the top of the thread.

I feel like you've missed the point slightly by citing Toddler Taming, which is quite behaviourist (that advocates time out I think?) and talking about parental attention being a reward or punishment, since the whole idea is to avoid rewards and punishments. So you might remove your attention because you are busy, but you wouldn't remove your attention to make a point. Does that make sense or am I talking rubbish?

OP posts:
raininginbaltimore · 22/07/2012 09:42

I do remove ds from table if his behaviour becomes unacceptable, but never out of room and I always explain. We talk about how we behave at table etc. He normally calms down in a few mins and then chooses rejoin us.

BertieBotts · 22/07/2012 09:45

I think that UP is... hmm, how to put this. It concentrates way too much on the parent-child relationship and (in my opinion) forgets about raising the child. There are things that we have to teach them and not all of them will be popular. You can't be the good guy all the time, and it's not overly helpful to be - it's useful for children to see you being assertive and stating your boundaries in a reasonable way.

I had a look at that hold on to your kids book on amazon and I'd probably say that I don't agree with the basic principle there. I might be wrong as I haven't read the book, but my feeling is that, yes, children will get to a point, probably at around the beginning of puberty, where they start to listen more to their peers than they do to you, where their peers' opinions and knowledge is more relevant (in their eyes) than yours, and that you basically have until this deadline to show them how to think for themselves, not to blindly follow, to think critically and to speak their mind without being afraid. And it probably will get worse until it hits it's peak at around 14-18 or so, but they will come back, especially if you've always been there for them. (I might be wrong about the book though as I said, but that's what I think on this issue in general!)

Good I don't think it's bad at all to have a bit of time out for yourself (even if hangover induced!) and let DP take over - why should it be? Even mums are allowed a social life Grin and you're entitled to some time off, so don't waste it feeling guilty. I suppose ignoring on MN is probably bad (I do this way too much Blush) but if they're occupied then really you can do what you want with your time. It's definitely one of my downfalls though, I let DS veg in front of the TV while I mumsnet a lot, and I need to cut down on it.

baltimore - maybe a blackout blind? When DS went through early wakings I let him in bed with me and he'd often snuggle down and go back to sleep for an hour or so, but if he was wriggly then it wasn't really helpful for me to sleep more. We put his favourite toy in his bedroom (his train track) and then I told him it was too early but he could go and play with his trains if he liked, and he'd do this, and then later when he got bored of this I gave him my phone to play games on, turn the volume down and he'd sit on my bed and do that. When he got to probably about your DS's age we would let him go and watch TV downstairs but I knew he wouldn't go into the cupboards, drawers etc. More recently he has become likely to seek out food though so maybe time for another approach for us!

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 22/07/2012 09:50

baltimore good example. I think maybe I confused things with my point number 1 in the OP, but it was more because I've seen loads of people say "I could never do UP because what about , I'd want to do and isn't that a punishment? I don't understand how it works."

So I was trying to make the point that it doesn't mean you can never do things that might look like a punishment, but that you can deal with things in other ways and that it's not about saying "My DC did something wrong, now I must punish them" but "I think this is the best way to teach them how to handle this situation".

So making a blanket rule that you if you want to sit at the table to eat you must adhere to certain social procedures fits with this.

OP posts:
raininginbaltimore · 22/07/2012 10:06

He has a blackout blind, blackout curtains and black sugar paper blu-taked to windows!

I have tried bringing him in with us, but he just jumps on bed and pokes us!

I think I am just going to have to ride it out!

ClimbingPenguin · 22/07/2012 10:22

DD often wakes at 5:30 but will now stay in her room until 'yellow sun' without too much noise now. She has her potty in there and we say she can read her books etc. doesn't have to go to sleep but be quiet. we also had a look at nap and bed times.

raining the adventures in gentle discipline is good at acknowledging we are not perfect as it mainly a collection of parents letters with a narrative and no set way of being right. There is a section on bribery which does give a list of things to keep in mind if you choose to use it. Don't know if you have come across adventures in tandem feeding but it is the same author and layout.

we have rules, of course we do. Dinner is she needs to largely sit. If she gets up too much and not eating, then we get her down and say she can play with her toys quietly. If she gets back up, that is also fine. If it seems she want to eat but lacks the control to stay settled then we put her clip on, at which point she calms down. Sometimes they can't handle freedom so I think it is up to us to take away the choice e.g. we don't have pens out at reach as she lacks the control to not just pick them up and draw everywhere. So I see this as the same. However i think it all comes down to how your child reacts to these.

personally I think it important to have time to yourself and also good modellin behaviour for children. DCs are going into nursery for two afternoons a week for August (as a recovery period for me) and then one afternoon a week while savings allow

GoodButNotOutstanding · 22/07/2012 10:32

Bertie I actually don't feel guilty about having stayed in bed til 12, but I do know that some people would judge that as being a 'wrong' thing to do (thinking particularly of some of my rl 'mummy friends') I think I may have done a bit too much ignoring recently though as I've had a lot of other issues to deal with in the past few months. I'm now on holiday though so hopefully I can use this time to reconnect with both dds and rediscover my parenting mojo. Having said that we're now out 'playing in the garden' where actually she's playing and I'm on mn Blush She's happy though and I would stop if she needed attention.

baltimore This is going to sound incredibly wierd but have you tried putting him to bed earlier? When dd2 went through her early waking stage the one thing we found that helped was her going to bed at 7pm instead of 7:30pm. It's definitely counter-intuitive but it worked for us. She may well have another early waking phase though and i don't quite know what we'll do then. This is another reason I continued bf as she can come through to our bed and just have some booby lying next to me, I get to continue snoozing and she's happy enough having some boob. That's probably not helpful to you though, sorry.

ClimbingPenguin · 22/07/2012 10:38

it is hard. On the hand you know how good it is for them to do self directed play, on the other you feel you should always be having quality time and feel judged for lounging around. At playgroups, I don't really see DD and since DS is a clingy baby then at parks she left to it most of the time as well. Now ds is older I can spend more time showing her how to climb things etc. but is easy to slip into more end of the spectrum than the other without realising.

Gauchita · 22/07/2012 10:47

Oh can I join? Thanks Bertie for starting this thread.

Marking my place for later, I've only read 30-odd posts (on phone, in car waiting for DH, with a baby feeding and a toddler jumping around!)

Back later Smile

raininginbaltimore · 22/07/2012 11:41

Thanks. He is bed at 7pm. He is tired out after childminder most days.

He won't play on his own, which is bizarre as he is happy to most of rest of time. He gets really worked up and screamy and I won't leave him like that.

Ah well, I'll have a newborn soon so better get used to it! (am 36 weeks pg).

ClimbingPenguin · 22/07/2012 12:55

i found DD was so tired from the stimulation of a new baby that her sleep was great. Just the week before we had reverted to cosleeping as she was up a few hours in the night. A week after DS was born and she slept through the night for a few months.

BertieBotts · 22/07/2012 13:57

That's weird. I wonder if he's just freaked out that you're in bed rather than up? I remember as a child feeling really scared if I was awake after my mum had gone to bed, because although she was there she wasn't there if that makes sense. If this is the case it might be that he's happy to play quietly while you mumsnet or even doze on the sofa.

OP posts:
PeggyCarter · 22/07/2012 18:32

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PeggyCarter · 22/07/2012 18:53

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claireinmodena · 22/07/2012 19:15

Being lurking for a while as I never find the time to post ... I have four dcs: 11, 7 and 5 month old twins who are two little angela for now Smile .
My problem is the older two: there is constant bickering, teasing, winding up which I always handle verybadly Sad.

Dd1 will wind sister up, and then play all innocent "I didnt mean it like that!" and will deny any wrongdoing to death. Dd2 is a deama queen who overreacts to everything. Dd1 also keeps arguing back when told off: tonight she was taking ages in the bath so I told her to hurry up. "but it took a long time to rinse my hair!" " what all half an hour?" "next time yo do it if you're quicker" me: "well you should have called I'd have helped" " i didnt because you were busy with the babies and then you tell me off" "I didnt" " you did that time you were feeding them" and on and on and on

I try hard not to get dragged in arguments but she outsmarts me everytime Angry

Is there anyone with older children facing similar? Any words of wisdom??
TiaSmile

claireinmodena · 22/07/2012 19:29

been lurking rather Hmm

Gauchita · 22/07/2012 21:33

I've managed to catch up now...

We first read "UP" and then "How to talk..." and in all honesty, even though I found UP very useful and the approach felt right for us, we found "How to talk" much more descriptive in a practical way. It might sound silly but the "cartoons" made it v clear Grin

No experience with older children Claireinmodena, but Adele Faber has a version for teenagers (How to talk so teenagers listen and listen so they talk") if you would like to look into it?

TheJoy, haven't read any of those so I'll watch with interest what others say.

Raining, it's so tricky when they wake up so early, isn't it? DD (3y1m) used to wake up at 7.30, these days it's 6 (also blackout blinds here). DH usually goes downstairs with her, and I stay with DS, who happily feeds sleeps a bit longer.

Climbing, I sometimes feel that too. DD is good at playing by herself, and DS is a velcro baby Grin but these days I'm trying to have a little more time with her. Yesterday for the first time since DS was born we went out, just the two of us. Sounds silly but it felt great... we had an ice-cream and sat together to listen to a violinist playing on the street. It was only 1.30hs but it was great. You're right, though, it's hard...

Argh, DS is crying, back later.

poppyboo · 23/07/2012 17:49

thejoyfull simplicity parenting

claireinmodena · 23/07/2012 19:36

Thank gauchita, I had heard of the books... Trouble is finding any time to read at the moment! Grin

GoodButNotOutstanding · 23/07/2012 19:46

Claire - dd1 is 12 and woud argue back every time if I rose to it. I just don't argue with her and keep repeating what I want to happen. So with your bath example I would just say 'you need to hurry up so other people can use the bathroom', she would say 'but I was rinsing my hair', 'You just need to be quicker about it' 'I can't be quicker' 'then we'll need to think about how you can be quicker, maybe cutting your hair shorter would help, or you could just try to be a bit quicker when I ask you to' 'I'll be quicker then'. Most of our disagreements are about her being quicker to do things actually so I have taken to just sending her to do things earlier. It stops us disagreeing quite so often. I don't really have much advice about winding up other children as she was an only til she was 10 and dd2 is so much younger she wants to baby her rather than wind her up.

Gilberte · 23/07/2012 20:42

the joyfull playful parenting- haven't read Positive Parenting though

Gilberte · 23/07/2012 20:43

Will try again without screwing up my bolding

thejoyfull -Playful Parenting

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