Parenting without punishments/rewards support thread

[BertieBotts]

Come on, it's about time we had a new one of these Whatever label you want to stick on it, unconditional parenting, gentle discipline, or just avoiding carrot or stick methods as much as possible in favour of a more co-operative approach, it works. (Personally I don't like the gentle label because I think that it's perfectly possible to be as firm as you like using these kinds of methods and "gentle" implies wishy-washiness.)

Not intended to be a debate thread, but a support/questions thread. Curiosity welcomed, outright "My way is better" posts not.

I promised a while ago I'd write up the basic principles that I try to stick to so hopefully this will help as a starting point as well as a reference.

1. Punishments are not always bad.
Sounds totally non intuitive, I know considering the thread title. The point is that punishment for punishment's sake is what's bad, or counterproductive, at least, but you shouldn't be afraid to do something which might upset your child if it's necessary to the situation. Try to ask yourself before you impose something:

• Is this helping the immediate situation, or physically preventing the situation from reoccurring?
  
• Is this helping my DC learn what's actually wrong with what they did?
  
• Is this helping make things right? (NOT in an eye-for-an-eye way!)
  
• Is this just to make me feel better?
  
• Is there an alternative which would achieve the same goal with less bad feeling?
  

2. Don't take it personally.
When your child is playing up, it's not because they are out to get you, and it's probably not a power battle, despite what all the expert opinions seem to be. They are reacting in the way they are reacting because that is the best way they know to deal with that situation, whatever it might be.

Even if they've done something deliberately hurtful or spiteful, look for the reason behind that - it's more likely to be a misguided attempt to express an emotion, e.g. anger, jealousy, upset, and it's possible to convey "Actually, that isn't acceptable" at the same time as dealing with the feeling behind the actions - in fact it's often more important to deal with the feeling first and the action later, especially if you're feeling you want them to suffer, "pay" or feel bad for what they've done. You can't induce guilt by punishing, it's more likely to induce resentment.

3. Show them what you want.
Both at crisis point and in everyday life, so, again, something often considered a punishment e.g. time out can work well here as long as you aren't threatening it or attaching negative connotations to it - just showing them "You are angry/excited/silly/winding each other up and I need you to take a breather" until they can do that for themselves.

In everyday life - model the behaviour that you want. If you slip into something you don't want them to model, like shouting, apologise as soon as you realise even if it's after the fact. Respond if they ask you to stop shouting, and own it, don't make them responsible for it (by saying things like "If you'd just listen, I wouldn't have to shout". Grown ups screw up too, and they need to see you deal with that graciously if they are to learn to do the same.

Listen to their requests and acknowledge them (which doesn't mean agree) if you want them to listen to you, don't belittle their feelings if you want them to be empathetic, say please and thank you and sorry. Negotiate but be firm.

4. Be specific with instructions or praise.
Linking back to the UP theory that rewards/praise can be harmful, especially if they are too non specific, try to steer clear of "stock praise" like good girl/boy, well done, etc. It's fairly easy once you get into the habit of it - I tend to use "Thank you for..." instead of "good boy" and "That's right" or some kind of comment about whatever it is DS is telling/showing me rather than just "Well done".

With instructions it's similar - you can start even when they're tiny, not just saying "No" but "careful" or "hot" or "Don't touch" and when they get a bit older trying to stick to the positive instruction like "Stay on the pavement" rather than "Don't go on the road" - it's also more instructive since not being on the road could mean the kerb is okay, or the grass, or that little low wall (which might actually be okay but you can negotiate easier if you're starting from a position of nowhere but the pavement.) I suppose points 3 and 4 are linked. So again, focus on what you want rather than what you don't want. It can also help especially with toddlers to instruct in advance/tell them what to expect, e.g. saying a few minutes before you get to a busy road that when you get there, they will need to go in the pushchair.

5. Look past the immediate behaviour.
Why are they behaving in this way? Immediate points to consider:

• Are they tired, hungry, hot or hormonal?
  
• Are you any of the above and so over-reacting?
  
• Is there anything else going on, even if it seems unrelated, that might be worrying them?
  
• Are you assuming adult priorities onto a child who might find something more important or more scary than you do?
  
• Have they got this behaviour from somewhere else?
  
• Are your expectations too high?
  

None of these are a total excuse but should shape the way you deal with things. It's also why things like reward charts etc aren't always helpful because they don't address why something isn't happening in the first place.

(Sorry this is so long )

[SilveryMoon]

I know this is an awful thing to say, but my ds's just really annoy me at times and I really don't know what to do about it.
Ds1 makes this hissing noise, which I really hate. I tell him every single day that if he wants to make that noise, then he needs to do it in his room on his own but yet every day he walks around the whole house hissing.
I don't want to be controlling, I want them to feel confident and secure and all the rest of it and to be able to come to me with things, but I really need them to listen.
I have really had enough of telling ds1 that he can't pick up ds2 by his neck, I tell him this daily but he continues to do it.
Yesterday I screamed so loudly at him and actually said to him "What is wrong with you?" he's just turning 5.
I am an awful parent. I never wanted it to be like this.

[Gauchita]

Have to go to work in a little but I just wanted to say: Silvery, (((hug))) couldn't care less if they're unMumsnetty or whatever.

I found the practical advice on the "How to talk" book very very useful. I think I remember one of the "cartoons" showing a mum and a daughter. The daughter kept leaving her towel on her mum's bed. It really really annoyed her. The author says merely repeating things again and again rarely has the desired effect. So they suggested saying things like "towels don't belong to my bed or your bed, they have to be hung" or "I really don't like it when you leave your towel on my bed, I don't like my bed wet" or "It makes me very angry to see your towel on my bed because it makes it wet" or "wet towels have to be on rails, not beds".

I can't remember any more from that example, though Do you think something similar could work with your DSs? Maybe saying to DS1 after the initial "You can make that noise in your room if you want" "I don't like that noise, please go somewhere else to make it" or "you have two options DS1, you can stay here with us without making that noise or you can go somewhere else if you want to continue" or even "I'm going somewhere else now, I don't like that noise you're making". Or something like that?

MsBaking, we're on the same boat with those phrases then. Will watch for the replies with interest

Must run now, back later.

[SilveryMoon]

Thanks Gauchita
I've read that book too along with many many others! Think I confused myself with all the different methods that I lost what I actually wanted to do.
I say all those things to him, about everything. It just doesn't work, or he doesn't care. I don't know.
I've just completely lost the plot with him over pushing his brother. Again.
There is only so many times I can say things like "I don't want anyone pushing in this house" or asking him why he's pushing and asking him what else he could try to sort out whatever the situation is before I blow.
I am suffering with really bad hayfever too, has been about 5/6 weeks of not being able to breathe but leaking snot. I'm hot and tired because I'm not sleeping, and now I hate myself for making excuses.

I have become the parent I never wanted to be and have to work now on breaking the shouting pattern.

[claireinmodena]

Hello silvery I still have that problem and my dds are 11&7!

I too dont want to interfere too much but I always seem to the wrong thing. I've got to the point where I tell them to come and look for me at the first sign of disagreement as they always ebd up in tears . Sometimes I think they deliberately misunderstand each other especially dd1

I'd be very interested to hear any suggestions... Now off to amazon...

[wilderumpus]

hey everyone, just popping in as was away for a long weekend :) Good to see how you have all been chatting though not sure when am going to be able to read back through everything!

silvery this too shall pass, chuck. And you aren't making excuses, sometimes our children are Extremely annoying Challenging and we are NOT always in a perfectly reasonable frame of mind, which is perfectly normal and acceptable.

I had a lovely moment (not being smug because am shocked we managed it myself!) on hols when DS (2.7) was becoming incredibly infuriated with my friend's 9 mth old DD. He was so very cross that she kept coming over and getting whatever toy he picked up (because she loved him!) and wouldn't give him any space. But he DIDN'T snap, or shout at her, or lash out. Just got very frustrated and looked to me to help. So we gave him his own special space she wasn't allowed in (a small staircase!), hugged him to help calm his angry feelings, and told him he was completely allowed to feel cross and frustrated - and this totally dissipated his anger. Then we could try to explain what babies are like :) Just acknowledging his feelings and giving him a cuddle - instead of cajoling him to play 'nicely' or not get cross, he was allowed to be cross... and this changed everything! then a minute later he got up and gave her one of his toys. And oh hurray, we cracked open the gin

off to try to read thread!

[wilderumpus]

ps the phrase 'toddler taming' makes me feel as sad as the phrase 'hugmonster'.

aw.

[SilveryMoon]

wilderumpus That is a beautiful story. What a lovely ds you have.

A member of staff at our local sure start centre years ago recommended 'Toddler Taming'. I had a flick through it but was instantly put off by the title, I read a few bits but didn't really like it or agree with it. When I returned her book a few days later and thanked her but said I didn't really think it was for me, you should have seen the look on her face! She then started talking to me about how much the principles helped her through her job as a nursery nurse etc and maybe I should give it a serious try, because "as an NNEB trained professional, I highly recommend it for a young mum who is struggling with behaviour"
I swiftly told her to fuck off that I wasn't experiencing 'behaviours' I just didn't want to supress my children's personalities and natural responses to situations.
All I've ever looked for is guidance and reassurance.
That book is just awful IMO. I read a passage about a boy not wwanting to go to bed, so the guy that wrote the book suggested that the parents attach a rope to the door handle of the bedroom and the other end to another door handle so that the child could see out but couldn't get out. I mean, wtaf?

[justwantcheese]

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[BertieBotts]

I'll see if I can find an article about praise/the reward thing, because it's the reward aspect of praise which is problematic - it doesn't mean you shouldn't say positive things to your children, if that makes sense. So it's more of a case of separating out the stuff you say which is just a positive expression of how you're feeling and the stuff you say with a rewarding kind of intent.

I often say thank you to DS for things like helping me tidy up and recently I've been saying "thanks for listening" if he's listened to instructions well, and I do observations e.g. "That was a kind thing to do" but now having read the excerpt I wonder if I should do more exploring rather than stating. I think it's definitely right to thank a child for something you'd thank a friend for, though, like passing you something or helping with something etc. I can't say "good boy" now because it just makes me feel like I'm speaking to a dog! Funny how quickly you get accustomed/unaccustomed to things.

DS picks stuff up from nursery, and from other places. I used to get massively upset by his use of the word "naughty" and recently he's obsessed with smacking bums and will come up and smack mine if he's annoyed with me and threaten to "tell you off" or put me on the naughty step . He never seems in the slightest bit worried that I might do it to him (as I wouldn't!) and I've kind of come to think that actually it's probably best to ignore it or let it wash over me. I don't like it when he speaks to me rudely and I will just say "Hey, that was rude. Can you talk nicely please?" or correct what he's saying e.g. "I don't like you saying shut up, that's rude. You can say be quiet please or stop talking please, nicely." ditto hitting etc, I just say "We don't smack, it isn't nice." and/or that we don't touch people's bums, and move out of his way or hold his arm so he can't hit me. Basically, the same way you'd deal with any other unwanted behaviour. State the expected behaviour calmly, physically prevent if possible. Try to keep the emotional response out of it.

I think as well that children just are very black and white thinkers and so - weirdly - very punitive/behaviourist approaches appeal to them and kind of fascinate them. I know that a lot of justification for the school systems like red/amber/green or a sun and moon and rainbow type behaviour management system is that "the children helped to come up with it" or "the children voted on it". They always seem fascinated when other children get into trouble, and if you watch children playing house, they're often extremely strict to their pretend children! They don't really think about the long term benefits of helping rather than judging, which is understandable because they're children, and we are adults.

Really hate toddler taming Tying a rope around a door is no different to be fair than having a stairgate on the bedroom door. Although I don't agree with that at all either, unless it's the only possible solution to prevent night time falling down stairs. That's also the part in the book though where he says it's okay to smack your child if they wake you up at night

For those with sibling difficulties, Siblings Without Rivalry is excellent. (Don't ask me why I read it )

[SilveryMoon]

I read Siblings Without Rivalry. I have read many parenting books so think I need to re-visit some of them!
I remember really liking The Incredible Years, but then I leant it to a friend who I knew wouldn't give it back!

I do try to get them to think of the things they are doing rather than instantly telling them to stop. For example, if one of them sit on the table, I just say "Are tables for sitting on?" or "What are tables for?" and the same for when they kick walls or rubbish in the street etc, "What do we kick?" They'll reply "footballs" then I'll say "What don't we kick" and they say "walls/rubbish/whatever item they kicked that is not a ball"

[BourbonBourbon]

Marking place to read through later. DS is only 7mo but is starting to be aware of his ability to do things and get a positive or negative reaction from me. I am not 100% on the ideas of UP from what little I've read - to be honest the tales of supermarket terrors upthread have scared me! - but I am quite a hippy parent at least according to my mum and mil so want to learn more and find what works for me and DS.

[MarzipanAnimal]

Great thread. I recently read The Science of Parenting which I thought was really good on the whole. It made me realise that a lot of the received wisdom I had accepted about parenting babies/toddlers isn't necessarily right (in fact a lot of it is wrong!)
It's helped me to feel less frustrated with DS when he's annoying (which is fairly often - he's nearly 2) eg when he has a tantrum I now feel sympathetic rather than cross (well I try to anyway!)

[GoodButNotOutstanding]

Bourbon I think supermarket terrors are par for the course when you have a toddler, not just for those of us using UP. Most of the parents I know have commented at some point about their toddlers being difficult to take food shopping. So you can make the choice to take them and put up with them being terrors or you can choose to shop online or leave them at home while you shop.

wilde That sounds lovely. Far too often toddlers are just told to 'let her play' or similar with no acceptance of their feelings. Your way sounds much more successful and I shall have to try it next time we have a situation like that.

silvery you are really not an awful parent at all. I agree with wilde that sometimes children are hard work and we aren't always in the best frame of mind to be the best parents we can be in ideal circumstances. I know I've had difficult periods where I've not coped with parenting very well at all. Recognising that fact and working to improve it is a very good start I think.

I hate the 'Toddler Taming' mentality too. It really makes it sound like children need to be trained like animals. I have a couple of friends who think I'm mad for not having a naughty step and not having used sleep training. I'm quite happy with the way I'm doing it though and my children don't seem any worse behaved than theirs, in fact they are better behaved than a lot of them that might just be their personalities though

[SilveryMoon]

We don't have a naughty step but we have a 'thinking corner'. If one of them do or say something that's really not on, I ask them if they need to go and think about it and it just gives us that chance to get a few minutes away without putting the negativity of 'naughty' on the situation.

[MamaBear17]

I'm in secondary education. Of course there are reward and punishment systems in place at school, but the rewards are given in recognition of achievement not behaviour. In our school we have expectations, not rules. They were set by the pupil voice team (consisting of pupils obviously) in a meeting with the headteacher. The pupils decided what kind of behaviour they expected from other pupils and how they expected the teacher to be in class. At our school our classroom management policy is a positive policy. An example would be if a pupil is messing around and not doing the work that has been set, rather than tell them off in a negative way, we would say something like: 'Sarah, you see how Jane is sitting nicely and getting on with her work? Do the same please' and then walk away. You give the pupil a chance to correct their behaviour by highlighting the good, not the bad. Of course, for extreme disruption things like detentions are issued, but there is always extra pastoral care in place for every pupil who has behavioural issues. What my school doesn't do, which I know other schools do, is reward persistently poorly behaved pupils when they behave well once. They are praised, but they do not get a 'special privilege' for a one off improvement. So, for the other children, there is never anything good about behaving badly. As a trainee teacher I was sent to a conference on exactly this type of behaviour management so I assumed it just happened everywhere. Perhaps it is just the midlands? The two separate courses I went on during my training and NQT year were run by John Boynton (training) and Jason Bangbala. Both really good courses but aimed at secondary I think x

[OstrichSized]

Silvery, I was wondering if the hissing noise could become a game between you guys. For example, ds hisses and you ask what that noise was? Is he leaking? Is there a leak from under his arms and hold up his arms to see. Then check if it's behind his knees or ears. Then start checking under the table, etc.

It could take his mind off making the hisses. And diffuse the situation for you too.

[SilveryMoon]

That's an idea Ostrich Although, reading your post, I have just realised that I clearly need to work on my stubborness and my need to be in full control.
About 2 years ago, I was a lovely parent, but now I'm just stressed and cross all the time.
What is becoming clear is that I want to tell them off (but I don't iykwim)
I try really hard to say 'yes' to everything I can and try to explain to them that when I say no it is because what they want to do is dangerous and I don't want them to get hurt etc.
I'm just at my wits end.
Ds1 has spent all day hitting and pulling at ds2. Ds2 runs to me to tell me what ds1 has done (it's not hard and I don't think ds2 is being hurt) so I tell ds2 to use his words to tell 1 how he feels and ask him to stop. But the thing is, for me, hitting and pushing needs to be punished because they just don't seem to understand what I'm saying when I'm telling them what they CAN do, or trying to distract them.
What I normally do is ask ds2 if he is ok. Then I ask him if I can do anything to help him feel better and we have a big hug. Then I ask ds1 if he thinks that hitting is a nice thing to do and would he like to sit in the thinking corner for a little while until he can think of a way to get what he wants without hitting. Sometimes he does, sometimes he says no and just says sorry to ds2, and then I bring him to sit with me for a bit, so he is removed from the situation but not rejected out of the room.
I'm a little deluded atm, I know, so don't take what I'm saying as what I actually believe, but it's almost like they want to be told off, but I know that what they want is attention and security.

[OstrichSized]

Yes, Silvery, I know exactly what you mean. This parenting lark is exhausting. I find it hard to adjust to the loss of control too. My bad days are when I want to do x,y and z but the dds aren't cooperating. My good days are when I plan nothing and follow their lead. I wonder how much longer I can go on like that.

I think a break would help but relatives live over 2 hours away and I'm nursing the youngest.

But from your post, it sounds like your doing great.

[SilveryMoon]

I've found something that is really helpful. www.ahaparenting.com/

[DitaVonCheese]

[Also marking place ...]

[littlebluechair]

I'd like to join in too. I don't know where I fit but I don't like threats and try to use natural consequences rather than punishments.

I find I do better some days than others and there are also big triggers. I have a DSS and DS who I look after full time (well, DSS not here every day of course as at mum's EOW but by ft I mean I am SAHM) and I can take it when DSS takes any bad feelings out on me but when he is not kind to DS I find it very hard not to (over)react. With DS I find I can get very tetchy when he is very tantrummy in public.

[SilveryMoon]

another thing I need to know is why is it when dp says something to my ds's they just listen? there's no arguing or whinging like there is for me, thry just do it, but yet dp takes no time to address their emotional needs oand he doean't reason with them or explain anything, he juat aays stop it and they do.
he doesn't understand what i try to do and think's i'm too soft

[SilveryMoon]

please excuse typos on touch screen phone

[DitaVonCheese]

Right, have skim-read a bit but have more or less caught up! I love the idea of UP and am fairly obsessed by How to Talk, totally get the theory of not praising/punishing but it's sooooo hard to put into practice!

I know a lot of the time the issue is that I want to make DD (nearly 4) do something or do what I say and obviously I can't so I need to change how I respond to her, but it upsets the control-freak bit of me And also some things are surely non-negotiable, like not biting her little brother or not spitting at us? We have a sign at the top of the stairs saying that biting is not allowed in this house (as per How to Talk) which has helped a bit, but she still bites sometimes. Still spits quite a lot too. Argh.

This morning DH said he wanted to introduce a reward chart whereby she gets a treat at the end of the day if she's got through it without biting/spitting and has eg tidied up her things. I'm resisting. Help! What can I suggest instead? He wants total obedience in some things (biting, spitting) some times as well and my suggestion that we just keep telling her that it isn't nice/allowed hasn't gone down particularly well.

TheJoyful re praising, it was described to me as "prizing rather than praising" recently. This was in the context of training as a breastfeeding counsellor, so the example given was meeting a mum who you supported earlier on when she was struggling with bfing to find that it's all going well. Rather than saying "Oh well done, that's brilliant" (so judging her behaviour) or "I'm so proud of you" (making it all about you) instead you reflect back some of what she is telling you eg "You sound really pleased with yourself". Does that make sense? So when I'm "praising" DD I try to describe what she's done and then give her a word to describe it herself ("You brought all your toys in from the garden, that's called being responsible") or say something like "You should be very proud of yourself" or ask whether she's pleased/proud of herself. Does that make any sense?!

[ClimbingPenguin]

reading this and using it as time to stop and reflect has made me realise we have slipped into a reward system for a few things . For me I notice if I haven't reflected for a while I start doing what people in playgroups do or what I perceive them to think what I should do. There are a lot of childminders at our playgroups.

We just had a stay with the ILs and DH got to see the very definition of conditional parenting so it has in a weird way been a really good thing. He has seen that most of the time, praise isn't genuine praise at all, but purely a crude behavioural modification tool. e.g. good girl being spouted for every singly little action.

dita can you point out his way isn't getting total compliance either. did his parents use it or smacking? If so did they just do it the once and he never had to be told again or like most people techniques can to be brought out time and time again. I find with DH it's about trying to find real life examples, but it does take a while. I like your explanation about making sure praise is about them and not how you feel about it. Don't think I would have reconigised the 'I'm proud of you' one as obvious as it is.