OK atheist parents - how do you deal with The God Thing?

[Bibulus]

DH and I aren't believers but we don't make a big thing out of it. We made the decision early on to be as neutral as possible in the way we talked about religion with DD, i.e. 'some people believe this, some believe that....'

She prays at school, she knows all about baby Jesus and his mother Mary, although she's probably a bit sketchy on the details of it all and has barely ever set foot in a religious building.

Anyway, this evening she asked to visit the local churchyard, so we had a little walk around, and she was asking lots of questions about the people buried there, why people brought flowers to them etc. Then she wanted to go into the church, and it was open so we poked our head in.

DD was spellbound by it - she said breathlessly, 'why is it so pretty in here mummy?' and asked a million questions about how you talk to god, what does heaven look like, who are the pretty ladies with wings on the wall.....! Then we got collared by the vicar, who was very pleasant and sweet to her and showed her round the church which enchanted her even more.

Am now regretting taking her in there a bit! I didn't want to ruin it for her so I haven't said anything to undermine the idea of god or praying or heaven. Now she is sitting next to me on the sofa practising praying. DH will do his nut!

So anyway, I'm interested to hear how other non-Christian, non-believing parents handle all this stuff?

Cote - actually, I have talked about politics with my DD (3yrs 11 mths). In the past 4 weeks or so this has been because (a) we have voted in the local elections and I want her to understand about democracy and (b) because I have started working at the House of Commons (and she has visited me at work) and I want her to understand about my work.

I think there is an age-appropriate way to talk about absolutely anything. Especially those things which are important to you.

When you ask why not wait until DC are old enough to understand, this is why not:

DD has asked questions about religion/ God / church etc. Am I meant to say "sorry, I'm not going to answer that, you are too young" or fob her off with some other sort of non-answer.

DD is absolutely old enough to understand (in a very basic way) a little about religion, politics, and for that matter maths, science, astronomy, horticulture, plumbing, ethics, and the zillion other things you end up talking to a normal, curious 3 year old about!

Frankly I am not old enough to properly understand the finer points of science / maths / ethics. At what point is a DC "old enough to understand" about religion? Seven? Thirteen? Eighteen? I am still trying to understand religion (and many other things in life) and I am 32!

DS asked what a church was, and then a mosque, and he wanted to know who God was. I only have these conversations when he initiates them

re politics, the same thing but I agree that at 5 they don't need to know the brutal reality. Plenty of time for that as he grows up

Sorry - just read that back and it sounded a bit aggressive - I hope you don't feel shouted at! I am actually quite a nice atheist!!

Coronation - My DD is almost 7 and she has never asked me a single question about God, religion, or church. I'm quite surprised that your DD is asking you about these things at age 3.

(DD is not dumb, just has never even heard of these words. Probably thinks "God" is just a word in the phrase "Oh my God!" )

If she had, I would of course have to answer in some way. That way would probably be close to "These are stories, like fairy stories or Snow White. For some reason, some people actually believe they are true but there is no proof for any of it".

Tiddly x post. agreed.

Cote: No, I'm not saying that atheism makes people in general risk adverse.

I'm saying that this PARTICULARY family have no faith of any level. Examples of how they think: If you smoke you WILL die of cancer. IF you lose your child in a shopping centre, they WILL be taken by a predator.

I really, truly believe that this stems from their lack of faith on any level. The father, on several occasions, has atoned to this.

My comment is an example of how their lack of faith has deeply affected the lives of their offspring. The children have been raised to believe in the bad of all people, rather than the good of all people, and this is directly related to their feeling that there is no higher force.

I concede (as above) that they are just misery guts (as well). My point is solely to this example, as opposed to a sweeping statement generalizing all atheists.

No worries, I don't have such thin skin

re age - I was thinking of an age when DC can think for themselves (at least a little), ask questions, and decide whether to believe or not, rather than just believe whatever I tell her.

If I talk to her about God and religion, I can't help but make her believe that there is no God. By delaying this conversation, I think I'm giving her more of a chance to make up her own mind.

DS has asked because we walk past religious establishments and also the nativity needed explaining (not a religious school though).

he also learnt the national anthem for the jubilee so is curious about who exactly the Queen is and God also has a mention!

politics is a tough one - there are often times it comes up and getting the level right can be hard

Cote: My definition of atheism is someone who does not believe in god or a higher power. My in laws definition is that you are the controller of your own destiny. They believe that the unexplainable can be explained. That faith is unimportant so long as you have control over your own life: if you don't take risks, then nothing bad will happen to you.

Again, I am writing based on my understanding of what being an atheist to them means, as opposed to what I think all atheists feel and believe.

On the converse, I have a family member who is extremely christian. they believe that god will provide so they never encouraged their kids at anything because god would give them a good life. both kids dropped out of school as soon as they could and then drifted for years before they realised that they had to actively take hold of their future

so the 'risk averse' thing can work both ways

jj - They do sound like misery guts

Not sure a study has ever been done about this, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that optimists are mostly religious and pessimists are mostly atheists. That is because imho pessimism > realism > atheism and optimism > believing in good things & a benevolent deity looking out for them > faith.

You could probably call me a pessimist, too. I certainly do thought about abduction when we lost DS (3) on the beach the other day and couldn't find him for over 15 mins So did DH, curiously, and he is an optimist.

I think this is because we know that abduction is a possibility, although with a low probability. That outcome, however low the probability, is so awful that I think it is not unnatural for the mind to immediately think of it and fear it.

jj - re "My definition of atheism is someone who does not believe in god or a higher power"

OK, then how can you say atheism doesn't have to mean lack of faith?

What kind of faith do you think atheists can have, if they don't believe in God or a higher power?

Do you mean faith in the goodness of their neighbours and stuff? That is not the same kind of thing, though, is it?

My ds goes to a CofE school and at the moment comes home fairly full of bible stuff.

He is 6 so I just let it go. I totally don't believe in it at all but figure it's a cultural thing and am happy for him to learn what he does at school.

Not prepared to lie about heaven though so did have an interesting convo trying to explain the Carbon Cycle to a 3 yr old when the cat died though

Interesting discussion.

I've struggled when my 3 year old has asked questions about death. One night at bedtime she said 'I don't want to die mummy'. I was completely taken by surprise and struggled with a response which could comfort her.

I find it hard to answer questions when I'm not sure what I believe.

Cote - ok, so I agree a three year old will probably believe whatever mummy says she believes, whether that's about Father Christmas, God, that girls should wear pink and like ballet, that sport is fun - whatever. But not talking about it is a bit like not doing sex education because telling teenagers about sex will obviously mean they'll go out and get pregnant.

And I think it's less about religion per se, and more that I want DD to be intellectually curious, about everything, and I want to encourage this from as young an age as possible.

As many posters have said on this thread, they have talked about their lack of faith with their DC and the DC still want to believe in god / pray etc! So I don't think that by talking about it would will necessarily make her believe that there is no god. In any case, even if at 7 she believed that (because you told her that's what you think), if you are bringing her up to have intellectual curiosity and independence, then hopefully she will make up her own mind for herself in adulthood.

A three year old can think for themselves to some extent. And a 7 year old a bit more, and an 11 year old even more. At what age do you say, "right, my DC are old enough to understand, so let's have The God Talk"?

I am amazed that your DD has no idea about God / gods / religion tbh! It's part of the life of other people at the very least, so I want DD to have some awareness of it. I'm sure my DD isn't particularly precocious. Other ways she has come across these issues, off the top of my head:

Her grandparents are church-goers and we have gone to their church on many occasions when we have visited.

They talk about various religions at her pre-school.

She was given Easter eggs by various people this Easter and so we wanted to talk to her about it.

She wanted to know why Hot Cross Buns were called that.

There is a massive amount of stuff for months beforehand about a certain Christian festival every 25 December!

My FIL is an architectural historian and interested in church architecture, and so we have been in many churches and talked about their features.

She has been to Christian weddings and christenings in churches.

I'm sure there's more!

On the question of death I would just answer honestly - DC are fascinated by it- it is adults who can't cope. I would keep religion out of it anyway - no one knows and talk of heaven is very confusing for a child.

Before I say anything I would just like to point out that I am a christian.. So maybe my views are abit bias.
However I was just wondering as a little add on. When you have children but no real faith etc... What or how do you deal with a close death that your children are aware off?
(just wondering) As I said I am christian and belive deeply that heaven is real and out of our time wave. As we have had a recent death in the family (my brother) Although we are of course deeply sad we lost him it gives me great comfort to know he is safe in heaven and has us all together again. Then my children of course were upset to lose their uncle but they have some comfort in hearing from me that he is safe in heaven and that we will all be together again. I know as they grow up they chose their own path and what faith they belive if any etc..
I was just thinking to myself as i read some of your posts I would feel great sadness not only for myself losing someone i love but also for my children. What comfort would I give them if i truely belived someone had died and that was it they were gone?
Sorry for long post was really lost in thought then and I am not being rude at all I was just wondering, Please no one get offended!! :) :)

so far, my daughter has encountered God at school / nursery and talks about it as very much part of a story.

i don't believe in it so i don't encourage, but i listen and don't discourage either..if she wants to go to an event to do God i'd take her. she likes going in the church and our local Father is a gem (he let us bury Leo's ashes under a tree in the churchyard which is exactly what we wanted).

it's really up to her if she wants to believe, and it could help her get into one of the God-squad schools around here!

death is a different question that i haven't really managed to get across, though i don't think adding a 'heaven' aspect to it is going to help...

Sunshine

If I was to tell my kids about heaven then I would be lying to them (in my mind). DS knows that some people believe in heaven but I don't.

I tell him that when someone dies a piece of them stays in the heart of the people that loved them and our memories of them are the best way to keep them alive so we should always be happy to talk about them.

Luckily he hasn't experienced bereavement but we talk about my grandparents. he asks - I don't mention it!

Cote, we talk about politics with our 3 year old - depends how you define politics doesn't it?

Sunshine, we've experienced exactly what you're talking about - an atheist friend of mine died of cancer ten years ago leaving a 6 yr old and a 3 yr old. She was adamant she didn't want them "lied to" about heaven and we were to tell them that they would never forget mummy and she would live on in the people they were and the people who loved her and that if they ever wanted to talk about mummy there were lots of people who would talk to them and share memories, etc. The accepted it in the way children do.

Personally I don't find the heaven thing remotely comforting - I want my friend to be living this life now, to be watching her children grow. I miss her now and always will - thinking I would see her again when I'm 110 and dead is of no comfort to me at all .

I had a bereavement counsellor through the church - specifically on how to explain death of a young, fit, healthy father to a 2 yr old and her advice was to leave heaven out of it.

If you start with heaven to a 2 yr old with no life experience it is no different to Devon! It is a place where the sensible conclusion is ' I will get on an aeroplane and. Ring them back'!

Sorry bring them back.

Living on in memory is lovely :)
So sad to hear about your friend I hope her children and family are all doing okay Its so sad to hear things like that :( Im sure her children make it abit easier for you to cope seeing them grow and spotting traits in them that have been passed down from your friend . xx
Again sorry for your lost