what are the reasons for NO smacking?

[hermykne]

I AM CURIOUS to know, folling the other thread, as my dd is so bold at the moment nothing gets thru to her, even putting her in a time out room for 2/3mins, shes 3. she will keep on screaming and then hit something or push something over.
can last 40mins and no matter how you go over the matter with her when shes calm, she doesnt seem to learn anything,
and i suppose smacking will not make her understand either...
but what does smacking create or instill in behavourial patterns in yours opinions?

ye sof course smacking is corporal punishment - why wouldn't it be? punishment against the body is exactly what smacking is

fairy mum, please read my post. I never said anything about smacking. I simply said that children are like this because their parents don't set boundaries

martianbishop, my post wasn't to you . You are right, I had not read your post when posting as I was busy writing my own. Look I posted just 2 mins after youMy post was just general comment to those who think children are badly behaved because not smacked and that smacking equals boundaries.

OK, you pass

I do think tho that parents do their kids a huge disservice when they forget that they are the adults and the kids are the kids. While I am always polite to the kids I teach they are not my equals in the classroom and they can be a real PITA if they think they are.

Agree wholeheartedly with the boundaries issue. I believe that one of the reasons I never had to smack dd is that I have always set clear boundaries. DD knows that if dh or I say "no" then no amount of cajoling, pleading (or when she was younger - crying, whinging or tantrum-pulling) would make us back down. I have even sometimes said "no" to something (ie. watching tv, having a biscuit) and then thought to myself that I was maybe a bit harsh and should have said "yes". I won't change my mind though. Actually, I do occasionally now she is a bit older (7.5) and can understand if I explain why I have changed my mind.

What Carolinamoon said about some parents wanting to be friends with their children rather than parents is so true. You hear of so many parents saying "well I don't want to upset him/her". No-one wants to upset their children but sometimes it is necessary if you want them to grow up healthy, happy and well-behaved.

Of course your children are not your equal and as a parent you are "the boss". But yes I do believe my children are my equals in terms of having the right to be treated with respect and not hurt. I think smacking is both hurtful and disrespectful. When I see people who smack or shout at children in the street, supermarket etc, I don't think "oh, there is a child who has clear boundaries and a firm upbringing". On the contrary!

Should make it clear (for those who don't have the energy to read the whole thread) that when I say "never had to smack" doesn't mean that I ever would.

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I was never smacked as a child, and I have never been particularly naughty, so I don't think it is necessary. I don't think that smacking is inherantly bad but I don't trust myself to do it without anger. I am usually cross when I have to sanction which is not a good time for me to be slapping legs. I use time out or pasta jar which works for me.

A mother dog will nip a puppy that is playing too roughly. I am of the opinion that smacking to curb behaviour is probably instinctual, I have certainly felt the urge myself. I wouldn't support a ban but I do get annoyed when I see parents smacking inappropriately.

I'm a bit amazed that everyone is so into punishment. I have a son of four and a stepdaughter of 14, and I would say that both are nicer than I deserve, and we don't have 'punishments'. Yes, I shout at my son (more to do with me than him, sadly. Very much my own weakness) and I experience frustration, but I don't do the naughty step and all that. Suedonim used to talk very revealingly about Indonesia, and how babies didn't cry and tantrums were unheard of there. Maybe we are doing something wrong?

Yes, that's right, Aloha, and Indonesians would never dream of smacking a child. I reckon you'd be putting your own life at risk by physically chastising a child, they find it abhorrent. But raising children in that country is much more of a community thing than here. I can imagine that if the burden of bringing up a child is shared, then it must be much easier to cope because there is always someone to take over before it all ends in tears.

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'everyone' is so into smacking? ????

I just wanted to say how impressed I am with all the arguments, both for and against, and how civilised the debate has been.

So that aloha does not feel entirely alone in thinking that she is the only one not into punishments, I too do not use any "technique" on my 2 year old toddler, like naughty step, pasta jar, ignoring, erm - smacking etc and have consciously avoided doing so. To my barely reasoning dd, distraction, humour, removing her from a situation has so far been enough. I would not say that she is particularly mellow, in fact quite the opposite, as strong-willed as they come, since she was born. It is harder work eg I if deliberately naughty I might have to remove her hundreds of times. But ultimately, she gets the message (say after 3 weeks??).

That is not to say I don't discipline or impose boundaries or want to be her mate. Discipline is not punishment. Rather it is respecting the fact that she is little person and having such a good relationship with her that she wants ultimately to be in my good books. I have to use the word "ultimately" because the results are not instantaneous. But it is worth it

BTW, I agree with fairymum's posts.

that is so atrange. the majority, including myself, are against smacking.

I've never used any punishment or reward system come to that with my two. dont know whether thats a good or bad thing really. dd2 is a bit of a spoilt little madam but I am hoping nursery and school will help her to learn to 'give' a bit.

I shout when I am angry and cuddle and praise when I am happy. That's about it.

Sorry, should clarify, i thought the majority were against punishments but were 'for' setting boundaries. Maybe setting 'boundaries' is interpreted differently by different people. I don't believe in punishments either, i think they just sow seeds of resentment. they did for me.

those who don't use any consistent form of censure or reward - how do you set boundaries?

it is really up to the parent to instill parameters of behaviour - you don't send a child to school without these nor into social situations IMHO

Can I clarify something about smacking 'in cold blood' as some have mentioned. This being seen as worse than simply 'losing it' and lashing out.

Bear in mind when I have had to smack it has gone through AT LEAST 2 warnings and probably a few 'please stop that's' etc I would not say I am totally calm, I am certainly angry and have usually resorted to shouting first. However when I use the term 'controlled' or whatever I have said, it is because I am not 'lashing out'. It is becasue I have pre-warned, cajoled, shouted, explained, shouted again etc and finally got to the end of my tether. This doesn't mean I am raging virago or anything, just that I have had enough - full stop. However if I have got to this point I KNOW i have to control myself, hence the smack is gentle and for my kids it has always been the shock of mummy actually doing it, not the pain.

I hope this makes sense?

I also admidtted earlier on this thread that I have smacked in anger, lashed out and did once smack my dd quite hard. That shocked me, as well as her, and although I have smacked since it has been more controlled, within a 'proper procedure' etc. Because unfortuneately unlike some of you I have had to disipline my kids, and smacking has been a part of this. Again as I have said previously, the last time I smacked was about 18 months ago. And also my kids cannot remember being smacked. The worst punishment in teh WORLD for them would be to shut them out - eg on the step. something that most of you think is a fair punishment (but that's for another thread ). BTW I do use the step too, but I find as my kids get older they are better and better, perhaps I am a better parent, or perhaps I can reason with them better, or perhaps I just have FAB kids

hopefully the dds boundaries are set by living with dh and I and seeing which behaviours we find acceptable or not

I've never had a consistent regime of punishment, either. Things like the naughty step hadn't been invented when mine were small nor the pasta jar, which both sound like useful tools. I've never been into sending children to their room, which was quite popular when my boys were growing up. But dd1 reminds me that she recalls me sending the boys to their rooms once for fighting at the dinner table - they were 19 and 23yo at the time!!

I suppose in some ways I've taken the line of least resistance, in that I reduce the potential for conflict to a minimum by not getting het up over what I consider to be small things. If children are allowed to learn from small mistakes then they are better equipped to deal with bigger issues later on.

I also think children learn their boundaries from watching their parents and you're the one setting the standards. Ime, they do know what is acceptable very quickly and they know when they've overstepped the mark. Having said which, a number of my children's friends think dh and I are very laid-back parents, so maybe it's us who've got it wrong!!

Crunchie, as someone mentioned way way down this thread, "the shock of mummy acctually doing it" as you put it is such a break down in trust between parent and child, I think that is very, very sad. But if it has worked for you, and you say it has, good for you.

Reading this thread has taught me alot and I know now 100% that I will NEVER smack my child. She is only 6 mnths old but I have made that decision. I believe I am here to protect her and teach her and when things get tough I hope I will remember some of the terrible things I have read here and manage to keep my cool.
The general concensus seems to be that consistancy is the most vital parenting tool you can use and it is when you are not consistant that you hit problems, be it consistantly smacking or consistantly explaining or consistantly using supernanny style discipline, what ever your choice may be.
I have made mine anyway and would like to thank Hermykne for this thread, it has opened my eyes.

I am a laid back parent too! Twiglett, I set boundaries with consistently saying (ok, not perfect, sometimes shout) "no" and variations thereof to open defiance and repeated removal from naughty situation. Dd goes to full time nursery and is very non-aggressive IMO.
Laid-back because I don't expect self-motivated compliance there and then. If I have to step in as a parent to enforce boundaries, then that involves physically stepping in and distracting/steering dd into another activity.

Ironmaiden I think it was me who mentioned the 'shock of mummy actually doing it'. You are saying it is a breakdown of the trust between parent and child - that is utter bcks IMHO. It makes a child realsie that they have reached the utter limit - or boundry - that has been mentioned here.

You seem to think my kids must hate me, have no love for me, no trust in me and see me as a total witch abuser etc etc

I hate to tell you that is not true, I have a great relationship with my kids, they know full well they are totally and utterly loved, not smacking kids does not BY ITSELF mean that a child feels totally secure in their relationship with their parents. Just as smacking them does not break down that trust, love, security.

Our relationships with our kids are about many factors, not just about smacking. My kids know I think they are fantatstic - I tell them ALL the time. They know I love them - again I tell them this every day. They are totally secure, happy, well adjusted children. They are not poor sad abused children. Bear in mind children suffer more from psycological abuse than physical - how many MN have bad relationships with their parents as they felt their parents never 'approved' of them, were never 'proud' of them. How this has caused many a thread/upset.

So please take that into consideration, my kids love me, and I know would choose a smack over a withdrawl of that love. That's how they see the naughty step, as a withdrawl of my love. That hurts them FAR FAR more than a smack ever could.

Can I just say that I too would be a laid back parent if my children were in full-time nursery. Disciplining my children is definitely easier when I delegate it!