what are the reasons for NO smacking?

[hermykne]

I AM CURIOUS to know, folling the other thread, as my dd is so bold at the moment nothing gets thru to her, even putting her in a time out room for 2/3mins, shes 3. she will keep on screaming and then hit something or push something over.
can last 40mins and no matter how you go over the matter with her when shes calm, she doesnt seem to learn anything,
and i suppose smacking will not make her understand either...
but what does smacking create or instill in behavourial patterns in yours opinions?

hermykne - come to this rather late. Hope you are still reading. I have this problem with my 6 year old complicated by the fact that he has autism. He often hits his 3 year old sister usually because she has done something 'wrong'. Also I find it hard to discipline her because he tries to copy me discipling her so she often gets away with this. Therefore it often feels like I have two undisciplined children!

Also had another child in July and I can see that dd may start behaving badly soon enough but fortunately with the age gap I hope she may be better when he is older.

Anyway we put ds1 out of the room although I have to admit its all gone a bit pear-shaped with the baby as I can't keep leaping up to take him out if I am feeding the baby and he is a big strong boy, big for 6. However that does seem to work to an extent but I don't know how much of it he understands as being a consequence to his behaviour. The only thing I can say is that repeated bad behaviour is often attention seeking. Try to work on rewards for being good ...sorry if this has already been said.

also anticipation is the key, for me anyway, I justhave to try and avoid the bad behaviour in the first place. This is pretty exhausting but better than constant shouting or at worst smacking. Its difficult but you just have to keep plugging away. My ds behaves better at school in a structured environment. I know he's much older than your dd but socially he is probably at a stage even younger than her. He finds dd v annoying too at times, so it could be the case your dd is just being bugged by her brother. In which case empathise with her and maybe encourage her to tell you about it although obviously not in front of him.

Hope this hasn't come too late for you.

Caligula - I think that is the point actually. the force of a blow is a very very subjective thing. the only person who can really gauge it is the child receiving it and there are obvious difficulties in getting that evidence.
otherwise you have to rely on the adult saying effectively "I didn't hit her very hrd" when in fact the adult doesn't know how painful or otherwise the blow was or how it felt. we've alll had the experience of accidentally hurting ourselves in a way that feels incredibly painful but looks like nothing from the outside.
but the whole thing about "reasonable force" makes me feel a bit queasy tbh.

I've been reflecting on this and I think there has been a shift in attitude towrds corporal punishment in the last 20 years.

I believe a lot of people would not wish to see it return in schools or care situations, at least not for their own children. The next step is surely to create a culture where it isn't used at all.

QOQ says yes she would but I find that shocking..it would mean that something would have to be used to inflict the punishment and in the 21st century it seems extremely retrograde to be using corporal punishment. I've listened with interest to the coverage of Matthew Pincent visit to the olympic schools in China and no one can condone the use of corporal punishment in that way IMO.

I would also not like to see it used in foster care and if foster carers can discipline challenging children without it then the rest of us should be able to.

Someone also mentioned that you rarely see parents disciplining children, I don't agree I see it all the time..and nine times out of ten it is ineffectual.

Zippi - I was dead set against corporal punishment in schools until I went to Zimbabwe - where it's still in effect. I've seen the reports of the Olympic schools in China - and yes that is shocking. But at the schools in Zimbabwe, only the headmaster (or deputy head if he/she isn't around) is allowed to administer it. The pupil has to be sent to see them by the teacher, and even then they most probably only get a stern talking to. I sent many an unruly (and spoilt brat) to see the headmaster in my 2 1/2yrs there - and only one actually got "the best of three".......and he was a 'seasoned pro' - came to school with padding in his shorts everyday........and was expelled from the school in my 2nd year at the school.

Any teacher administering corporal punishment of any kind is in trouble - on old generation teacher at the school clipped a boy around the ear and was suspended from work............until the parents insisted they didn't want any action taken because the kid probably deserved it - but then he was a little sod .

QOQ what did they use to administer the punishment and where did they strike them?

Did you change your mind because you became involved in the culture,

yes this is totally wrong bl**dy appalling IMO.

Punihsment was with a cane - trousers, pants (and padding for repeat offenders) stayed up - and for those who didn't get the cane usually just the thread of having the head or deputy head telling you off was usually enough - even for 16/17yr olds (I was scared of the deputy head for AGES )

I changed my mind after a couple of months because it worked. The pupils had respect for their teachers, for members of the ground staff, and for other adults in general. They were polite (still remember my first dayo n the school grounds having a group of 15yr old lads pass me, raise their hats and say "morning Ma'am" - I was only 18 - but they knew I was older than them and probably one of the new Gap Year teachers), and the issues we have in our schools today with behaviour and discipline simply weren't there.

DH wanted to teach when we moved to the UK - and I told him catergorically that unless he got a position in a decent private school not to bother - even the best state schools in this country would have shocked him.

You know, I don't think for me it's an issue whether it 'worked' or not - I totally respect your experiences QoQ, but for me I wouldn't want my child to be hit at home or at school. I'm sure it can work well, but my feeling is that other things can work as well. My children aren't badly behaved - they are normally behaved children, sometimes good, sometimes bad, when they're bad we deal with it. But we've never smacked them, and never will.

I think it sounds barbaric QofQ tbh

nothing to admire there whatsoever

and btw dd1s school is full of well-behaved children and not a whiff of caning in sigth

UCM I am sorry but to smack a 2 year old because he won't get dressed won't solve anything. He is 2 for goodness sake, you have to anticipate this kind of behaviour and allow plenty more time for getting ready.

I thought it sounded barbaric too - until I experienced it first hand - and saw schools with great results, happy (and successful) children, and respect for adults better than I've ever seen in a school in this country.

so what?

its still rubbish.

bloss my point was to counter the argument "you don't hit an adult but then you don't do all the other stuff for an adult either like control their life, diet etc " (paraphrasing). i'm simply saying well you might in some circumstances, but you still wouldn't hit them.

i'm not talking about whether it works, is an aid to learning (ugh) etc. i'm talking about the horror and revulsion we'd rightly feel if someone hit a defenceless old person or disabled person, for example out of frustration. i feel the same when someone hits a child (in whatever way) and that is because i see a child as a full human being with rights and dignity. that does not mean i say children are exactly like adults and should be treated the same, but i do say they should be treated with the same respect and have the same digmity and that means not being hit.

have you seen it in action????

As I said when I was told before I went out there that corporal punishment was still in use I was shocked and angry - I thought of what schools used to be like here, with teachers whacking pupils for any minor bad behaviour, rulers, chalk dusters, punishment in front of the whole class etc etc.

Got out there and realise it wasn't like that - and that it did actually have a role to play.

There were 1800 boys in the school (aged 11-18), many boys left the school after 6yrs never having even been sent to the office at all, some were there every week (but not always getting the cane), some had been once or twice and never been back.

Most of the badly behave kids were sons of Goverment Ministers or Mugabes nephews too.

Who you are related to won't make any difference to behaviour per se, will it?

Christian schools have tried very hard to keep and then get back their "right" to corporal punishment..citing God's wish..why are Christians more keen on this punishment pro rata than the population as a whole?

Message withdrawn

no I havent seen it

but you described it as someone hitting a child on the bottom with a cane

that'll do me.

hmm yes, sorry but I would hardly hold Zimbabwe up as a model for how other countries should be running themselves.

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zippi - yes they were spoil brats who thought they were better than everyone else (just like their fathers/relatives) and used to think they could get away with stuff because of who they were related to.

Zimbabwe, on the whole, doesn't have any major problems with violence, not in the same way as South Africa - where Coporal Punishment in schools is supposed to be against the law. Most of the violence in recent years has been down to the political tensions - and that could happen ANYWHERE in the world. In fact when I first arrived in the country, before the political situation as is now started it was a very peaceful country where people respected each other. I was safer walking to the shops in the evening out there than I was over here!

Recent figures from nationmaster

Crime: Assaults (per capita)
Per capita figures expressed per 1,000 population.

1. South Africa 12.1 per 1,000 people
2. Montserrat 10.3 per 1,000 people
3. Mauritius 8.8 per 1,000 people
4. Seychelles 8.6 per 1,000 people
5. Zimbabwe 7.7 per 1,000 people
6. United States 7.6 per 1,000 people
7. New Zealand 7.5 per 1,000 people
8. United Kingdom 7.5 per 1,000 people
9. Canada 7.1 per 1,000 people
10. Australia 7.0 per 1,000 people

So even with the increase in violent assaults in recent years still on a par with the UK.

And what happens in schools out there, has little relationship to what goes on with the government, until very recently schools basically ran themselves with very little input from the government - sadly ZanuPF has now decided that schools are the breeding ground of MDC supporters and are dictating much more what happens in them.

I'd send my children to school in Zimbabwe (coporal punishment or no corporal punishment) anyday over schools in England (even most of the private ones).

and I think this one is even more telling with regards to how they "think" they can behave after leaving school

Total crimes per Capita.

" Country Description

1. United Kingdom 85.6 per 1,000 people
2. United States 80.1 per 1,000 people
3. Zimbabwe 28.9 per 1,000 people

No wonder I felt safer out there than I do out here!!!

anyhow in the knowledge that

a) I'm less safe here in the UK than I was in Zimbabwe

b) I'm not going to change my views

c) No-one else is going to change their views

d) I'm always right

e) I have to put DS2 to bed

and

f) I have do to some route planning for DH

I'm going to leave this thread now. I think we'll all going to have to agree to disagree and it's cold up here again too.

Zimbabwe doesn't have a problem with violence! Well, Amnesty International's report on human rights violations in Zimbabwe doesn't make comfortable reading. I thinkyou are completely on another cloud than the rest of us? Smacking or no-smacking....Jeez....

Yes Human Rights are bl**dy appalling we're talking about crimes from person to person, not from Goverment to person.

QofQ - you really do take things at face value don't you!

Do you suppose for a second that Zimbabwe may be underreporting crime??????

Unbelievable, truely unbelievable.