DH and I desperate for help/break from the kids (long)

[bistokids]

We have two lovely daughters aged 5.9 and 1.10, we live in our home town and we both work (I do three days). Sadly, my own parents are deceased and I have no other relatives. DH has one brother who lives at the other end of the country and who has issues with being out of work/getting divorced/alcoholism. His parents live locally to us, they are both 61 and retired, fit and well.

DH is the elder brother - the 'successful' one. He has a good job - we look for all the world like a family who are 'coping' and 'sorted', however, we are hanging in by the skin of our teeth and so desperate for help with the girls. They are lovely children, but both very verbal, bright and demanding (I wouldn't say spoilt - just always on the go and full of ideas - DD1 is on the gifted and talented thingy at school). The 4 year age gap means they demand very different things - the little one wants to play chase, the big one wants help with a jigsaw. We're always knackered. DD1 woke at 5am every day for the first 3 years (sometimes 4am) - we took it in turns to get up at 4-5am every day for that three years until she learned to read a clock. I don't think we have ever recovered. Our marriage isn't in a good state.

In the last 5.9 years, I can count on one hand the times my PILs have helped with the kids. They once took DD1 for a walk when DH rang them from work to tell them I was desperate for help (that was in 2006). They also took her out to feed the ducks on Easter Sunday last year because we had cooked lunch and this gave us chance to clear up the dishes afterwards. We moved house in January and they gave us half a day of help but this consisted of (literally) barricading DD2 into the dining room until she howled and howled, at which point MIL repeatedly told her she was 'naughty' (she wasn't - she had been barricaded into a room for hours). On the plus side, we got to move lots of boxes around the house, though they left at exactly 5pm to have their dinner in a local pub, as 5pm was the time they had agreed with each other to leave. They have never been alone with DD2, who is almost 2.

My in-laws are not very perceptive and even when I've tried to explain we need help, it seems to go over their head. They rarely visited until recently (FIL retired 5 years ago) when MIL retired from her part-time job and complained she didn't know how she would fill her time (FIL goes fishing and watches a lot of telly). She decided she would visit every Thursday. I work every other Thursday, which means she collects DD1 from school on the weeks I work. She brings sweets for both children but doesn't see DD2 as DD2 is at nursery that day. I do appreciate this help, but it's always felt more about filling MIL's time than helping us out. FIL rarely visits unless we are cooking him a meal, particularly if he thinks it will be a barbeque. When he does visit, he is totally disinterested in the kids but very interested in our telly because we have Sky TV and he doesn't. He pointedly visits if there's a football match he wants to see but is quite happy to sit alone in the sitting room with the door closed where the kids can't disturb him.

DH says his parents both grew up in emotionally cold households. He is disappointed by the lack of involvement (which hit him last December when they refused to come to DD1's nativity play because it was being held at 9.30am and they didn't want to get up so early) but accepts this is how they are. They are recently beginning to show some interest in DH's brother since he admitted being an alcoholic. In comparison, we seem fine. In reality, we are screaming. Not waving but drowning.

I would love not to have to do the bedtime thing, just once. I would love somebody else to make the kids' tea - just once. They are well behaved, in a good routine, go to bed at 7pm and always go straight to sleep. We have a babysitter we pay but obviously we can't stay the night anywhere. I worry we are heading for a divorce - we spend no time together, we pass the children like batons to juggle our work commitments, we spilt up all the time to give the children the attention they need (for example, one takes DD1 rollerskating, the other stays home with DD2 who still has a nap).

I have really begun to resent this situation. We have no life, no marriage. We are like zombies, two mates doing 24 hour on-call rotas looking after these children with no support whatsoever. I have begun to resent my in-laws, especially when they tell me of the increasingly bizarre ways they are finding of filling their time (most recently, travelling to random places and back via several modes of transport, just to fill their day and because it's free now they have a bus pass - they have a car too). DH was going to invite them for Easter but I've finally said no. I don't want to cook for them - we have them several times a year for sunday lunch and they usually repay the favour once (boxing day, cold meats and bread type thing). I'm so tired, I don't know where to turn.

Not good this, is it?

I feel so lonely and desperate for a break.

If you are hanging everything on the fact that a person is not behaving in the way you want them to, and if they would only do what you want then life would be wonderful, then if you are not already having MH problems you are heading for them.
Your PIL are not going to help you out because they don't want to, you need to accept this and work out other ways of getting your needs met.
I agree with all the other posters who suggest that you see your GP because you do sound clinically depressed.

Bisto, I was very struck by your post earlier that both you and DP came from what seem to be rather emotionally 'cold' homes. Sounds just like mine was, and I struggled terribly when my DC's were little. I wanted everything to be lovely, maybe even perfect, but in reality had no idea how to achieve this! - and my anxiety just grew and grew with every 'mistake' I thought I was making.

What helped me - and I realised I needed help after second DC arrived and she was about 18 months, and that I was feeling more and more resentful, to her, to my parents and pil's for not helping me, to my DH, and even getting depressed to the point of really not coping at all - were several things.

I started two activities with just DD ( the little one), and had a friend to take DS(who was nearly 6) while I did these: swimming once a week, and a music class followed by a drink and treat. Spending special one-to-one times with just her helped me bond deeply with her, I guess, and the resentment towards her soon disappeared.

I read a couple of very good books about emotional intelligence, and postive parenting - one very important lesson I learnt to improve my family's happiness was for me to believe that I was a good enough parent and understand that that was enough - perfection is not possible or desirable - and also to count my many blessings. Doing this gradually helped to remove my resentment and anxiety tremendously because I slowly grew in confidence to be more like the mother I longed to be.

I talked - a lot!- to parents I knew who seemed to be happy and coping, and tried hard to learn from their positive example.

I learnt to forgive myself for not being perfect!!

I also managed to join a book group, once a month meetings. Rarely read the books when the kids were little! - but loved the evening out being an adult again. Also tried to fit in 3 thirty minute walks a week, at all sorts of odd times of the day: always found a bit of exercise eased anxiety for several hours.

I needed a lot of from these sources of help, and things improved wonderfully, we even had another DC a few years later! (Also got divorced eventually, so was a single mother for a while but that's different story!!) So whatever help would suit you, I'd recommend you try it - your GP can access really good CBT counselling and AD's if needed, buy books, talk to as many good friends as possible, and chins up try to see what a good mum you really are

Can I make one more suggestion - are you trying to be a perfect mum - cooking meals from scratch? Scheduling improving activities? Etc. Why not just do less for a while.

Let the kids watch tv when you are tired. Buy frozen pizza. Get a playpen (google baby dan) so you have one place in the house you can put dd2 and know she won't come to physical harm. If she cries / watches tv from the playpen for 10 mins while you shower, that does not mean you are a bad parent.

Similarly, dd1 does not need your attention all the time. Let her get bored at weekend and organise her own play. She will be fine.

Your dd2 is at a very demanding age and you have my full sympathy. And do get to the gp please.

bistokids

Wanted to just add something here, it does sound like a depression, maybe brought on by your second child, maybe "grieving" for past life, maybe just bieng overtierd.

I have two angles.....The first angle of mine is that I too feel a bit like this sometimes. Im a single parent, DD's dad has nothing to do with her so no support there, his family have never bothered with her apart from the odd patronising message asking for photos (which I did send.....still no visit) and absolutly no finacial support!!
I have no sisters, brothers ect, my dad is dead, my mom and I have v. mixed relationship and I generally dont get support. My child also has a chronic sleep problem, which we have seen every person in the land about, and they are saying drugs are the only option left, when I dont want to give her drugs.
For years, Im lucky if ive had 4 hours a night. DD can do 5 days a week at school, and still stay up till 4am. Easily. I look at her sometimes and think its a trick, have even been too school ranting about how they MUST be letting her sleep.....they are not.

So I understand some posters saying, weve got it hard too, youve at least got a DH ect.....but...
I also know what its like to have depression. True depression, it wouldnt matter how many cleaners you had, or money, infact you could win the lottery and still feel like shit.
So Its not that you are bieng ungratefull, or self indulgent, and certainly not a bad mommy. You just need some professional help. Good luck

Have you tried asking them outright for the kind of help you want or are you waiting for them to offer or step in? My ILs are not local and although love my girls and are great with them are not good at offering to give us a break, so now when they visit we ask them if they could take the dc to the park for an hour etc. To all those who think you have no right to expect help from ILs, I disagree. Surely families are meant to support and help eachother? Of course it doesn't mean all families will but to say that a person has no right to expect help from family is to have a rather sad view of what family is about in my opinion.

bisto, time for the gp.

your focus is external, and it should be internal.

go to the gp, discuss ads and counselling, and try and relax a bit.

little kids are knackering and soul destroying, but they do get older. we've spent the last umpty ump years trolling three kids to far flung places with no grandparents. and my dd2 has a disability. and i've tried to work in most of the places we've fetched up, with dh working here, there, 14 hour shifts, or buggering off to war zones.

i know exactly how you feel. the only person who can help you though, is you.

if you can't get yourself in the right frame of mind on your own, you need to go to the gp.

it's all very very normal. (even the going to the gp part. they will probably nod sagely and discuss the prescription, and discuss some parenting services etc. all good.)

but you do have to want to get a grip. instead of doing the 'woe is me' thing. because that will only make it worse. particularly when, on the face of it, your life is pretty fine.

i know that sounds terrible, but believe me, i've been there.

and enjoy centerparcs.

Dh and I call that handing the kids over while the other one goes to work as the other one stops work Relay Parenting! it is quite exhausting and I think getting extra childcare if you can is no bad thing.

But yes go to your GP. And well done for admitting you need help. Too many, far too many, people carry on struggling without seeking help.

Bisto, your situation seems perfectly normal. I have a four year age gap with a very placid 6 yr old and a whirlwind tantrum of a 2 yr old. We live overseas with no family within a 14 hour flight. Yes, I've been hit with a shoe while changing a nappy and my DH is overseas 2 weeks (sometimes 3) out of every 4.

However, your reaction to this and your coping mechanisms don't seem normal. It's not your fault and you are doing your level best but I seriously think you need to see your gp. It's the toughest job in the world so you need to be seriously fit (both physically and in yourself) to do it well - please see your gp, explain and get the help you need so that you can be an even better mum. In the meantime, your kids are loved and have great lives so you're not so far off the mark.

Look after yourself.

Really do sympathise Bisto, it's not easy when you have no or very little support.

I sometimes get sad about my situation (no family close by) but I have to say it's nothing like yours. My DH is home at 6pm and is there to help. It must be very hard and really exhausting.

Take care

My cleaner - would love her to be a spare granny - she does 3 jobs - I've already asked her to do a fifth hour and she can't - she has to run to Sainsbury's to stack the shelves. I'm sure she'd be better off here reading the Gruffalo!

There's your answer then, pay her more than Sainsbury's do, let her read stories and let somebody else who needs the money stack shelves.

bisto

Apologies if this has been mentioned already but it sounds like you are trying too hard and giving yourself a really hard time. I am also prone to anxiety and I know I could never become a totally chilled-out kind of person, BUT, I have learned over the 10 years since dc1 to relax somewhat.

Most of the situations you describe - tantrums and nappy-changing disasters in public, kids ruining days out etc - we have all experienced, they are part of bringing up small children. Depending on my mood, I can laugh, be philosophical, or on a bad day I might shout and build it all up into something much bigger. I know it's not that my dcs are abnormally difficult really, I just can't see that when I'm feeling anxious.

One book which really helped me was "The Idle Parent" by Tom Hodgkinson. Not everyone will agree with this I'm sure, but it helped me to see that I didn't have to be providing endless entertainment for my dcs, and that it's actually very good for them to get used to doing nothing much at all for quite a bit of their time. The hard part is of course "training" dcs to entertain themselves, especially if they have been used to a lot of structure. Your dd2 is still little, but soon (I found around 2 it all got easier when they got more physically independent) you will be able to go to the park and sit there with your book for example. My dcs now know that when I have my book, I'm not playing. I get stressed if I don't get a break, and we live abroad so I also have no family help, so I've had to make sure my dcs know how to play on their own for a while and leave me alone. Otherwise I would crack up. Because I now know I can tell them "OK, Mummy needs peace for half an hour, then we'll do XYZ", I can enjoy the things I do with them. Don't feel guilty - my parents were great but life certainly didn't revolve around me as a child, I was expected to go off and play a lot of the time.

I do sympathise and hope you can find a way through this xxx

'I'm not sure from your post why it is that two parents are finding two children such a struggle'.

You're kidding me??? You should meet my 2!

'I ought to be able to cope, you all seem to. Don;t you ever think it's hard?'

So, so, so hard. Sometimes I lie in bed thinking I can't face yet another day of chaos, but I do. Parenting is unbelievably hard. My DS2 is 2, and the most awkward child I have ever met. DS1 is 4 and has so much energy he is literally bouncing off the walls. Coping is very hard, and sometimes I don't that well.

But it's got to get easier, right? I hold onto that hope fact.

I think it's hard too Bisto

Nothing you have described is out of the ordinary for a parent with 2 children, It is utterly crap for a long time, there are days when you wish youcold disappear. I'm sure 99% of MNetters have been there. This is not your childrens' fault. Nor is it the responsibility of your in'laws.

Find your local Home-Start scheme (your chilodrens center will have the details). You may be able to get a volunteer to come and lighten the load for a few hours a week, and be a sounding board / mentor / whatever and help you find coping mechanisms for these issues. But as others have said this will not last forever and you know this yourself - your 2 year old will be that lovely 6 years old one day. You should definitely go th the doctor snd quick smart.

As others have said, go and see your GP, also talk to your Health visitor.

Maybe there is a local college that trains Nursery nurses, maybe one could visit as part of her training?

Do get involved in toddler groups, and let DD2 do her own thing. Try to get to know other mothers at school.

Do get a babysitter, so you and DH can go out together occasionally. Do the tourist things where you live. You live in the UK, I do not believe there is no history where you live. Maybe join the National Trust, and at least go to some of their kids centred events.

For DD2 is she is really that exhausting, then look for baby swimming and baby gym classes. Don't feel guilty about having a cleaner, I had one for years, and my kids all went for a couple of sessions a week to a nursery from 2, and I was a SAHM.

BTW our family has never given us child care (except two of the nieces have babysat once each).

Have you called home-start?

Im sure they will help you see light at the end of the tunnel.

Bisto as others have said it is very tiring to have young children at the best of times and even more so if you don't have any help/support network. I do sympathise with you in relation to family not helping out. I am from the continent and all my friends and family there help each other out without even being asked, it is just the way of life. Here in the UK it is very very different. I have found that in part due to the much greater distances and as a result people living further away from each other (plus the poor transport network making this even worse), it is less practical for family to help out, but also people seem much more self centred and less willing to help others. So much for the big society ...., it is not for nothing that politicians here talk so much about it, in my own country it would simply be taken for granted and hence would never be a real political issue. Alas, there is not much you can do about this except make do. Many others have already advised you to talk to your GP, which hopefully will help you to sort out your personal problems. But on top of this you may want to see if you can develop a hobby, something to look forward to for yourself. Are there any local community colleges near you? Many of them have creches, so you may be able to do a course in something you like once a week with your LO going to the creche at the college, whilst the older one is at school. Also, you work part-time, do you have to or do you really want to? You may be trying to do too many things, unless work actually provides you with a 'break'? I hope that you can sort things out.

Aw, you sounds sad and lonely. Do you have any friends with children the same age/s? Can you get together for occasional meals with them - then at least there will be more parental support/help with kinds whilst one/two of you cook and you'll get to socialise a bit. If you on;t have any friends with kids of similar age then maybe you need some! What about getting to know some parents of school age children? Is there any way you can do this? You say you collect your older child from school so maybe that's were to start. I'd not expect hep form PIL though - they have already done their child raising so probably don't want to do any more.

My parents live too far away to help and both of my partner's parents are dead so we have no help with our LO and it can be very hard sometimes so I do sympathise. We only have one child and it's partly for that reason. We do all go out for meals as a family but it's true we have little time as a couple. We both like to cycle but at the moment have to take it in turns at the weekend, till LO is big enough for babyseat on bike (and even then a 10 mile ride with a baby isn't the same as a 60 mile one without!), so I do understand that you need time as a couple too.

That's where a babysitter in the evening can help, and also holiday/children's clubs for your older child during the day, giving you chance to give one to one attention to your younger child, and assuming she has a nap that day, perhaps some time as a couple, before your older child finishes holiday club. Childminders also do holiday care (if they have a vacancy) during school holidays so you may be able to book the odd day or week for one or both children and use the time to be together just the two of you. You do need to plan this type of day/week well in advance though, rather than trying to be spontaneous! OK it's not a once a week thing, but if you do a day or two like that at every school holiday you'll be getting some regular and planned time to yourselves to do something special together which you can look forward to each term or half term.

Also agree with Bisto that an evening course on your own or as a couple can be really rewarding - what about dancing or language classes - and use their creche? Private gyms and local authority leisure centres often have a creche - (although you'll need to check opening times of the creche) but you may even be able to swimming or use the gym together and leave your kids in the creche.

Parenting/Caring is the hardest job I've ever had - children have so much more energy than I do - they can talk for longer, go for longer, be active for hours.

How I cope with foster dd (attachment disorder so she talks to me and requires attention all the time) is by having regular breaks and after school/weekend activities. So she does Scouts (2 hours), dancing (2 hours), Scout Camp (7 *days - bliss) in the Summer.

Your children are really young so you are at the hardest part of life - you have some money so you absolutely need to pay someone to babysit an evening or two a week. You need regular breaks - not necessarily going out for dinner but maybe just out for a drive in the car. Use all available respite opportunities - so go to Ikea (put the kids in the creche) and go with dh to the cafe to drink coffee, use Sure start or creches, put the youngest in nursery more.

Your post is the reason I am grateful I didn't have children of my own - i knew I would not be able to cope with young children on me all the time - I too grew up in an emotionally distant household and I need LOTS of personal space.

Each persons NEED and WANT for personal space is different - you, quite simply may NEED more to cope with having them.

Yes, you may need anti-d's but it could also be that you're just utterly fucking knackered.

Any chance you could work less so that on your 'free' day when older dd is at school, younger is in nursery - you can just take the time to stare into space?

Just a suggestion - if money isn't an issue, have you considered hosting an au pair? My DH is in the army so does long stints abroad (has been away since January so far this year) and I work full time. My parents live 7 hours away and PILs, 3 hours. Our au pair is fab - she entertains the children, helps with the housework and generally provides a bit of cheery company and extra pair of hands. Her help at bedtime is particularly useful - I have a 1 year old and a 2 year old - as she will take DD1 for a bath if DD2 wants to breastfeed and, if not, I get some lovely one on one time with DD1 whilst she entertains DD2. She can also do DD1's bedtime routine so that is handy if something else is going on (e.g. last night our washing machine sprung a leak so she took both girls and put DD1 to bed whilst I tried to find the stopcock!).

Most au pairs will also babysit say, one night a fortnight. We don't ask ours to because my children are so young that I don't feel that it would be fair on her (and it's outwith the usual terms of an au pair's engagement to care single handedly for a child under 2). But your children are old enough for an au pair to babysit for them regularly, so you can make the most of the time that you DO have with your DH - I think the trick is to make it quality not quantity.

I fall into the pattern of thinking that you have on occasion - everything can seem utterly hopeless when you're tired, and stretched, and wish you were being a better parent and feel utterly isolated. But you ARE getting through it, and a chat to your GP about all this may point you towards other sources of support. From reading your posts, I think you would benefit from cognitive behavioural therapy - you have a lot of automatic negative thoughts, catastrophic / fatalistic thinking and a very external locus of control. Anti-depressants / anti-anxiety drugs may be of some benefit - I'd personally lean towards a tricyclic medication rather than an SSRI in your situation but that would be something for you to chat through with your GP if you thought it was an option.

Meanwhile, can I suggest a potentially useful book? Mind over mood is a workbook based on a cognitive behavioural therapy framework. It is most helpful when used in combination with clinical treatment, but if you face a big wait to get access to talking therapies or if you don't feel ready to go down the GP route yet, then a lot of the students I have worked with have found it useful and you may too.

I'm sorry things feel so overwhelming right now. It's a horrible mental place to find yourself, particularly when you can't see a way out.

Where are you Bisto?

I empathise with what you are saying and I think the naesayers are being pretty harsh. Yes looking at the situation objectively they are your children and yes you are responsible for their upbringings but I do not think that it is unfair of you to expect a little help now and again, they are their grandchildren and if denied this could claim grandparents 'rights'. I also have a physical DD and it is so so exhausting and the impact of being too overwhelmed has lead me to almost start an affair and my husband and I have to work really hard and maintaining a balance and dialogue. You own it to yourself to the family to get some colour back into life , you are obviously not a drone and need more than just a mere existence so ask your inlaws if they would babysit for a day or overnight once a month I think that is realistic and put the ball in their corner, they would show themselves up as callous if they said no.

I'm right on your side, maybe the people who are down on you are happier with a more routine life.

'maybe the people who are down on you are happier with a more routine life' - or maybe the people who have responded agree that children are bloody knackering, as is working, as is everything at this life stage, and are not naysaying, more accepting that (in mn stylee) 'this too shall pass', but if it's not passing fast enough - get thee to the doc or elsewhere to ask for help.

re homestart, depends on the area i think. you might get lucky, but tbh on the face of it, you might not be the highest priority.

we are all on her side. many of us (probably most) have been there. but you don't get out of the depths by blaming your ils for a perfectly natural life stage. you have to work your way out of it. there are loads of good suggestions. mostly from people who haven't had the luxury of being able to blame the grandparents, which in a way makes it easier to recognise that the solution comes from you, not your or your dh's parents.