is DH touching dd inappropriately?

[stirling]

Hello,
this is difficult to post but i really need some opinions.
Will try to start from the beginning. When DD was born (now 3)my husband would always smile/laugh at her genitals and feel amazed that we have a girl. (already have a son aged 5). Ive seen him and his mother 'affectionately' pinching her nipples since she was a tiny baby and laughing.
DD is now 3 and Ive noticed that whenever DD needs clothes changed either for bedtime or morning, DH quickly whisks her upstairs(before I get to stand up) and then I hear her squealing and laughing 'no stop it!' (she is not distressed in anyway).

He also always wants to take her to wee (she is fully potty trained but needs help with clothes/wiping) and on a few occasions she has been wet and he's needed to change her. When Ive confronted him and asked him how she got wet, he says she lifts her bottom up to show how she wees..Im shocked because she has NEVER done this with me, nor do I think she could come up with the idea of showing how she wees.

He is always squeezing her bum -not such a crime but its very often.
My gut feeling is that he is fascinated by her and finds her very cute, my concern is him touching her when changing her clothes.

I confronted him today in totally the wrong way. I said that I know he finds her cute but that he should maybe not touch her genitals now that she is no longer a baby. He exploded with rage. He said he only tickles her (when undressed) and then he flicked me on my forehead and stormed off :(

I realise I took a huge risk and have probably jeapordised my marriage but at the same time if he is stroking/tickling/kissing her down below I feel it should stop.
Ive tried walking in on them to catch him but her pjs are usually slipped on by then.

Sorry this is long. Im taking her to get dressed/loo as much as I can but have been ill a lot lately and bed bound.
Any advice appreciated. Thankyou

some info and numbers here

I think that what you have described (the giggling, taking her to the toilet rather than you etc) sounds harmless on it's own. It is only really your feeling of uneasiness that is a real worry (the nipple pinching thing a bit odd but perhaps it's something his mum did so he thinks it is ok..). However, a mothers instinct should never be ignored and only you know your true feelings on this matter. The man you spoke to you was probably responding to the information you gave him, not to your instincts. Follow your instincts, and we can't know what those are. The forehead flicking is indeed a separate issue, does that happen often? I feel so sorry for you in this predicament, but you must try to keep a clear head and do what you feel is right.

I'm a nipple pincher.

A bottom squeezer.

A tickler.

Oh and I just love the fat on the inside of small childrens thighs, the chunkier the better perfect for squidging.

I see nothing wrong at all with anything the OP has described to us so far. Her DH appears to be very hands on with the children which is excellent considering the OP's poor health.

Having said that, I am shocked that the OP believes that her DH is capable of abusing his daughter. Obviously I know anyone can be an abuser. However, if I suspected for one minute that my DP was realistically capable of this then the relationship would end.

So in his actions I personally see nothing to be worried about, but the fact the OP seriously believes he is capable of abuse tells me the relationship is over...How do you come back from that.

Oh and if DP accused me of sexually abusing our DC's I would slap him. I know this is wrong but it would be better than punching him. The OP's DH was wrong to flick her, but although I don't condone his physical response I can understand it.

you should trust your instinct. I have to say me and dh squeeze our ds's boobies and bums and there is nothing dodgy about it with us, we just find them adorable and dont see anythìng wrong with it. Your situation is different by the fact you are even thinking something might be going on. I agree with filming him.

What an awful situation for you Stirling.

Patting on bottoms is of course fine but nipple-pinching just seems odd to me personally. But I suspect this is all more your instinct that something is wrong and I am a firm believer in listening to your instincts.

Really not sure what to advise apart from I'd possibly go back to the nspcc and say you are not happy with the advice the other organisation gave you and could they recommend some-one else you could speak to.

Tbh I don't think any of the behaviour you described sounded that dodgy.

However - the fact that his reaction was to flick you in the forehead definitely IS. It's a completely strange reaction, imo

Oh and I'd also start to talk to your DD about the importance of bodies being private etc and also discourage any talk of secrets - I prefer to talk about surprises.

I have a couple of questions.

"DD is now 3 and Ive noticed that whenever DD needs clothes changed either for bedtime or morning, DH quickly whisks her upstairs(before I get to stand up) and then I hear her squealing and laughing 'no stop it!' (she is not distressed in anyway)."

Have you ever been in the same room while this is going on?

"Ive tried walking in on them to catch him but her pjs are usually slipped on by then."

Is she ever undressed when you walk in?

If the answer to both of these is no I would be taking her to the police to be interviewed. Your gut instinct is telling you something is up - you should listen to it.

I read this quote earlier and wanted to go and have a cup of tea on top of my initial reaction:

"I tickle my baby girl (also 3) I say 'i'll tickle your chuff' and squeal while making a pinching movement she loves it"

I'm sorry, but I find this quite inappropriate. Not abusive, not at all, just not appropriate. In the end my yardstick was to consider that she will likely model her behaviour on her parents', and I don't think it would go down well if she tried to replicate the game with another child or adult. I for one would be a bit if a toddler came up to me clumsily making grabbing motions near my crotch and threatening to tickle my "chuff". I can't see it being ok at nursery either.

Whats wrong with tickling her toes or stealing her nose? It's one thing being at ease with her body, but at some point soon she will need to know that some bits are hers alone and this doesn't support that.

I agree with that Porcelain.

Been caught up with other stuff, but just wanted to reply to this: SparklyMartini Wed 29-Dec-10 18:42:35
Er, Avon, what on EARTH about this thread would POSSIBLY make you think that was a problem? Of course it's bloody not. I don't for one single second believe you can't see the difference. Unless you're really, really stupid, which I am sure you are not.

You're right, SparklyMartini, I'm not really, really stupid and no need to suggest it. I was referring to a post further up the thread where someone had said a female friend of theirs kissed their daughter's bottom all the time and this was ok because it was a female, not a male. The reply was that inappropriate is inappropriate whether it's a man or woman, which is, of course, true. However, it was the suggestion that kissing on the bottom could be deemed inappropriate that I was querying. I won't post any more as this thread is obviously not about me. I hope the OP gets the advice she needs. I'm a strong believer in gut instinct and the safety of OP's DD is what's paramount here.

Avon, it was me that said "inappropriate is inappropriate" and it was WRT that particular poster implying that just because a woman was doing the touching didn't automatically make it OK. i wasn't referring the the actual act of patting or kissing the child's bottom, if that makes sense.

It's never once occurred to me to tickle my children's private parts and I think the idea of it is odd, even though I have no problem with open conversation about sexuality if I'm asked questions. Nipple pinching a child is also really strange, imo. The only people who have ever done that to me were sexual partners (and I didn't like it then - it hurts tbh!)

ditto electra WRT nipple pinching. the only time it has ever been done to me was during sex. i have never known anyone to do it to a child.

isn't a chuff your vulva?

"I'm going to tickle your vulva"

Surely not.

Unless in some places chuff doesn't mean a girl's genitals.

I've re-read the OP a few times and I think that most of the things described could easily be a loving father-daughter relationship. Only someone who is there, seeing it happen would really know if it is a concern or not.

I would be a bit concerned about the nipple pinching.

The squealing and laughing when getting undressed sounds just like a normal tickling game, but I would ask the OP whether the DH also does this at other times, and when the DD is fully dressed? DH and I tickle DD a fair bit but at random times, it would seem weird to me if it was always naked and when no one else was around. Also, OP- you say that by the time you enter the room your DD is dressed, are you getting the sense that your DH hears you coming and quickly gets her dressed?

If you are seeing these things happen and they just don't seem right to you, then I agree that you should follow your instincts.

OP- what a horrible situation to find yourself in.

Are you close to your MIL? Could you ask her about the nipple tweaking? Did she do it to DP? Does she still do it to DP?

Does your DP have any siblings you could discuss his childhood with? If he's had an odd/abusive upbringing maybe that's why he doesn't understand boundaries (not that I'm in any way excusing him).

I agree with others about getting some kind of camera. Could you alsotake some practical steps like getting DS to go with DD to get changed? OOr you going and getting DD's nightclothes straight after dinner and having them downstairs with you so she can get changed in front of you? This isn't a long-term solution but might help whilst you are sorting all this out.

Do you know anything of DP's sexual history? Does he have a PC you could check for inappropriate images?

My DD is also 3 and she goes to the toilet herself. Tell DP that you want her to learn to go by herself. If he reacts badly to this then it may give more evidence of concern.

The forehead flicking is not on. Has he apologised for this? has he ever done anything like this before? How is he with your DS? Did he do the bum-pinching etc with him too?

Ignore that idiot at that 'help'line. I hope his all works out ok.

I am really saddened that posters would think pinching nipples is acceptable behaviour for a 3 year old to endure.

I also do not understand why anyone would need to tickle their child's genitals.

Perhaps these posters are just trying to wind people up.

Agree that nipple pinching is really weird but also the wanting to take her to the toilet all the time - i know in our house its always 'you go' 'no its definitely your turn' type of conversation and has been since that first week of nappy changing novelty swiftly wore off.

I should have added poor kids who have to put up with such crap from their parents, only to be told that their parents were just having fun.

ILoveTiffany

Suspicion isn't actually proof of anything,you know. Really hope you don't get called for jury duty any time soon

Ok Avon, I just found it very hard to believe that anyone could be led by that post to genuinely query whether it was ok for them to kiss their own baby/toddler's bum something that is very normal and widely seen as fine amongst parents of young kids, and even in uncontroversial advertising as well, as someone else mentioned let alone to be so freaked out by it that you end up in a cold sweat etc. I found it hard to believe you honestly were worried enough by this thread to feel that you were being inappropriate.

I therefore thought you must surely be shit stirring. If not then I am sorry.

I simply can't believe that anyone thinks tickling a child's genitals is appropriate. Believe me, if your 4 or 5 year old went to school and told their teacher that you did that, serious questions would be asked.

Unless that post wasn't real?