is DH touching dd inappropriately?

[stirling]

Hello,
this is difficult to post but i really need some opinions.
Will try to start from the beginning. When DD was born (now 3)my husband would always smile/laugh at her genitals and feel amazed that we have a girl. (already have a son aged 5). Ive seen him and his mother 'affectionately' pinching her nipples since she was a tiny baby and laughing.
DD is now 3 and Ive noticed that whenever DD needs clothes changed either for bedtime or morning, DH quickly whisks her upstairs(before I get to stand up) and then I hear her squealing and laughing 'no stop it!' (she is not distressed in anyway).

He also always wants to take her to wee (she is fully potty trained but needs help with clothes/wiping) and on a few occasions she has been wet and he's needed to change her. When Ive confronted him and asked him how she got wet, he says she lifts her bottom up to show how she wees..Im shocked because she has NEVER done this with me, nor do I think she could come up with the idea of showing how she wees.

He is always squeezing her bum -not such a crime but its very often.
My gut feeling is that he is fascinated by her and finds her very cute, my concern is him touching her when changing her clothes.

I confronted him today in totally the wrong way. I said that I know he finds her cute but that he should maybe not touch her genitals now that she is no longer a baby. He exploded with rage. He said he only tickles her (when undressed) and then he flicked me on my forehead and stormed off :(

I realise I took a huge risk and have probably jeapordised my marriage but at the same time if he is stroking/tickling/kissing her down below I feel it should stop.
Ive tried walking in on them to catch him but her pjs are usually slipped on by then.

Sorry this is long. Im taking her to get dressed/loo as much as I can but have been ill a lot lately and bed bound.
Any advice appreciated. Thankyou

Eurostar - sorry, I've not really answered everyone, there were so many replies! Well, its a good point. He is different with my son, still v tactile and affectionate but Ive never seem him 'fascinated' by his male bits/attributes. He has really been very intrigued by DD's 'girlyness'. He also doesnt willingly take DS upstairs to the toilet or to change.
Zoe, thankyou for taking the time to post 2 lengthy posts your advice is actually helpful and Ive taken in what youre saying. We certainly do need counselling.

I think you are brave, it must be very hard to even start think abut this. I am sure that ignoring the possibility for abuse is an easier course and perhaps one that many would take.

I salute you and hope you find peace. I have not added anything about looking after your daughter. I know you will x

I hope you find some peace in the whole situation.

I am another "survivor" (i hate that term) of child abuse. My family was torn to pieces after my mother refused to believe any of her children about her husband (our stepfather)

He was even imprisoned yet she stuck by him.

my earliest memory was going to bed and him looking in the bed to make sure we didnt hide toys there, and showering us and mkaing sure we were clean everywhere.

If you have this suspicion you need to take it further, having found video evidence of myself being videoed by the abuser i strongly urge you to think clearly if you want to see that. It will never leave you.

i wish you all the strength you're going to need to get through xx

Hi Stirling,
Sorry you are having such a terrible time. I used to work as a residential social worker with looked after children many of whom were looked after on a shared care basis.
Your husbands behavior is inappropriate and implies that he is either likely to abuse, is tempted to or is already in some way. Being ?fascinated ?is a worrying sign.

Your daughter is now 3 years old and you are in the house when your husband is taking her upstairs. It seems he is in fact likely to be touching her, tickling her, trying to make these activities seem fun, normalizing what he is doing whilst pushing the boundaries of normal appropriate behavior further.

If he is ever likely to seriously hurt her it will be when you are out of the house or when he has sufficiently ?primed? or ?groomed? your daughter .

Lots of abusers spend years slowly working up to more serious abuse and rape. It is on a continuum where at first it starts with crossing boundaries right through to rape.

You say you will be taking up a part time job, please don?t, this is not a good time to leave the children alone with him.

Its an over reaction to have slapped you on the forehead but a great way of throwing out the idea that he is an innocent man shocked to have been accused. Rather gives the impression that he is hurt by what you said. This gives the subtle impression to you that you are out of order and should never raise these concerns again. It is manipulation.
He might not even be aware yet that he is tempted but he needs help to know where the boundaries are before there is an escalation in this inappropriate behavior.

If he was going to listen to your concerns he would not have hit you. I would speak to social services.

Funny how when a woman posts that she suspects her dh of having an affair , alsmost everyone is agreement that she should trust her instincts and either a) get rid of him , or b) find evidence and confront him.

This isnt a man having an affair.
This man has aroused suspicions in his wife that he is abusing their child.
This woman is married to him , she knows him , she wouldnt be suspicious for no reason.Sometimes the gut instinct is all we have to tell us that something is wrong.

I wouldnt hang about , looking for proof. id leave. You wouldnt see me for dust.

I think you should install the camera. As some people have the said the images may stay with you for ever but how else are you going to know for sure?

I was shocked the first time I read this then I read it again today and am a bit confused.

Have you seen him touch/kiss her down below?

Is there definitely nothing in your past that has sparked paranoia? (ive not read many answers).

Im now reading you hear giggling and you 'think' he is doing something?

That said, if there is no reason for you to be paranoid and your gut feeling is uncomfortable then you can't go out and work until you are sure she is ok.

Stirling; your post was really brave and well done for getting in touch with professionals about this.

It's impossible for anybody here to correctly interpret what you've described but obviously people have their views. The forehead flicking was really disrespectful, you probably shocked your husband with your comments and he just reacted very badly. If you say he's a good father then perhaps you two can sit together and talk honestly about your concerns and how you will parent in this area in future.

Is he a bit immature perhaps? The nipple tweaking thing - especially with his mother - seems a little bit juvenile but I wouldn't call it abuse, although it's time to stop it.

We all have our own parameters of what's appropriate and what isn't and personally I don't think kissing, grabbing or squeezing childrens' bottoms, legs, is right either, not abuse but not something that feels right to me.

I also wonder whether there are husbands who feel that their wives' exhibit inappropriate behaviour sometimes? It's not just within the mothers' province to monitor potentially inappropriate touching. I would think that a woman would react just as badly, if not worse, to any suggestion of impropriety in their behaviour towards the children, however gently couched.

I think society has become a bit hysterical over child rearing, whilst dropping huge clangers in terms of protecting children such as Baby P and Victoria Climbie.

I hope you get the support that you need, OP, and can work things out at home.

I've read a fair amount of this thread and it reminded me of something a midwife said to me when I was visited at home after dd's birth.

Her breasts were slightly swollen and she told me it was hormonal and the swelling would go down in a day or two. (it did.)

It was something I had never come across before or since and she commented that some parents of asian origin squeeze the breasts as they believe this reduces the swelling.

Personally I think this solution is bollocks and would only increase swelling IMO but there's nowt as queer as folk as they say.

Anyway, it just reminded me after reading OPs first post and I wondered whether the dad and his mother may have the same idea?

However, whatever the 'motivation' or reasoning it's still inappropiate.

I wish the OP all the best in dealing with this awful situation. Trust your instincts, she's your daughter and nobody knows her better than you.

I have just asked my husband, who looks after our DD aged 3 what he thought. Our DD can wipe herself after having a wee and only needs help after a poo.

My hubs doesn't even wash her, he prefers the soak in the bath thing whilst you play (he is useless for putting the conditioner on for nit reasons). He simply lets her in the bath and waits for her to call out that she is finished.

Straight away, he said the same thing as me.

It's weird and you are right to have concerns.

i would say to any mother trust your instincts.i would be concerned for a start hes treating your children different and alarm bells would be ringing at the way he rushes to do things for your daughter and everything you have said points to grooming.

you do need proof because if you split over this sisuation the courts would give your husband access and then you wouldnt have a clue whats going on. setting up a secret camera sounds a very good idea to me.

Stirling, Im so sorry to hear this - what an awful situation to be in. Do you have somewhere you can go and stay? Are you in a financial situation to leave ASAP?

I was abused as a child and, through the counselling I have had, I have learned a lot about the psychology of paedophiles. Namely that they start off completely innocent, then introduce more inappropriate touching very gradually, so that the child doesn't realise that anything is wrong. The child isn't prompted to tell by being questioned about being touched in a strange way, because they aren't aware that it's wrong until the abuse has escalated and is deeply rooted, and they are psychologically damaged into silence.

I feel concerned that he is so keen to undress her and mess about around the toilet, your dd needs to learn that it's inappropriate to show how she is weeing, not in a heavy way, but simply because it's not the done thing in any situation.

Whether your dh is doing anything wrong or not, I think it's time to start to teach your dd about where people are allowed and not allowed to touch each other, so it's completely separated from any possible grooming and put forward as a normal part of her growing and learning. A good description is that you don't touch people where a bikini covers your body, so that includes genitals, bottom and breast area. Your dh should support you in this.

At 3 years old, I was certainly encouraging independence in dressing, toileting and bathing in my ds, and I am still working on it with my teen dd who has autism. I demonstrate (fully clothed) on myself where she should wash, as she doesn't understand speech, then I encourage her to copy on her own body. I still wash her hair, but her body is her own and it is unnecessary for anyone else to touch it while she is in vulnerable places, such as in the bathroom.

Im so sorry to hear of this going on. Can I just say When I have post natal depression I was paranoid that my husband (now ex as hes a knob) was doing stuff to our son. He was not and would not of done anything it was all in my head. But in this case I think we can certainly say its not you its your husband. Im sorry but tickling, kissing what?! That should not be going on!! I would never do that to my son or my baby on the way. Man I used to worry if I had to touch my sons willy to wipe around it if it was a horrible runny poo that had gone everywhere. I always used bath him and when he was 3 used to let him bath his self and check he was ok on regular intivals (still paranoid about him drowning!) Hes now 5 I help him get in the shower as bath is high up and he showers his self and shouts when done I leave the door a jar in case he slips over. I think your husbands reaction is weird! Would he not be hurt and withdrawn by those comments not flick your forhead?! My mum comes from an abused family there were 9 of them and the father chose to beat some of them and to abuse and beat others. My mum left and repoted him to the police. My mum is now 55 two of her brothers are still having what they call dark days because of thier horrible father. He died and most of the family were glad. The two brothers did not attend the funeral and said they would dance on his grave. I know it all sounds a bit grim and sad but you need to get advise and I think leave if and when you can. I left my ex husband because he played on the computer too much and ignored me and DS he was a selfish pratt he would leave DS to cry if I was in the shower and he was on his game. I used to be sooo angry with just that. I dread to think what I would of done if he might or I have seen or heard him doing any of these things. Do you even feel comfortable with your husband after this? Good Luck and hope something gets sorted for you and you DD. I hope you have somewhere to go.

It must be hard to try and gauge if what he is doing is wrong or not, but in my opinion, you have to trust your instincts. If his behaviour towards your DD is making you feel uncomfortable in any way then you have to act on it.
You tried talking to him about it and he reacted in a way that tells me he was being defensive. This could have been because he was either disgusted that you could think such a thing or that he was angry that you had found him out.
You know your DH better than most. I strongly suggest that you talk to a professional about his asap as either way your feeling surrounding the situation need to be addressed.

Good luck and i hope your fears are unfounded. x

I can't stop thinking about your situation. Have you managed to speak to NSPCC yet? Hope you are ok and managing to get things sorted xxx

As a couple of others have said, a camera is a good idea, not (necessarily) for you, but for the relevent authorities.

If your marriage is over (which I can only imagine it will be if you openly accuse him of abusing your daughter), then he will - I presume - have unsupervised access to her. I'm fairly sure that he won't be denied this simply based on a suspicion / gut instinct from you.

If you think that he's abusing her then you do need proof imo, as that's the only way you can protect her in the future. I can't imagine what it must be like to drop off your child for the weekend with someone you suspect is abusing them.

I am a bit shocked by the camera idea TBH. I thinks it is like waiting for OP'dd to maybe be abused again far too risky if there is something really inapropriate going on!

Gorionine - yes,it's an unappealing prospect. But less risky than her daughter spending every other weekend alone with the man who may be abusing her, perhaps?

Surely if there is real suspicion that he is abusing her, no one in their right mind is going to send her there every other week end?

But she may not have any choice in the matter.

She suspects he is abusing their daughter. He outright denies that this is the case.

Without evidence, how likely is it that he will be prevented from having unsupervised access to his child?

Maybe, I thought, why a camera? If I am in the same house as my DH and suspect he is doing something wrong, I would just "creep on him" and if what I saw confirmed that my DH was touching our Dd in an inapropriate way (I assume OP must have seen something at some point to have risen her suspicions)I would contact SS or the police. I am aware that it would be the end of the road for H and me but if after investigations he was fond to be innocent he could restart a relationship with his daughter but not until it had been clearly established that all was perfectly innocent.

From what i know of this area I think it a good idea to record your daughter, without her knowledge of course, showing you with a doll or teddy etc what he is doing to her.

As awful as it is I wouldnt advise you leaving him either because he'll get access to alone, at least at the moment you are there. If she shows you something you know to be wrong then you have grounds for him not being able to see her unsupervised.

How do they behave if he gets her ready for bed and you walk in?