is DH touching dd inappropriately?

[stirling]

Hello,
this is difficult to post but i really need some opinions.
Will try to start from the beginning. When DD was born (now 3)my husband would always smile/laugh at her genitals and feel amazed that we have a girl. (already have a son aged 5). Ive seen him and his mother 'affectionately' pinching her nipples since she was a tiny baby and laughing.
DD is now 3 and Ive noticed that whenever DD needs clothes changed either for bedtime or morning, DH quickly whisks her upstairs(before I get to stand up) and then I hear her squealing and laughing 'no stop it!' (she is not distressed in anyway).

He also always wants to take her to wee (she is fully potty trained but needs help with clothes/wiping) and on a few occasions she has been wet and he's needed to change her. When Ive confronted him and asked him how she got wet, he says she lifts her bottom up to show how she wees..Im shocked because she has NEVER done this with me, nor do I think she could come up with the idea of showing how she wees.

He is always squeezing her bum -not such a crime but its very often.
My gut feeling is that he is fascinated by her and finds her very cute, my concern is him touching her when changing her clothes.

I confronted him today in totally the wrong way. I said that I know he finds her cute but that he should maybe not touch her genitals now that she is no longer a baby. He exploded with rage. He said he only tickles her (when undressed) and then he flicked me on my forehead and stormed off :(

I realise I took a huge risk and have probably jeapordised my marriage but at the same time if he is stroking/tickling/kissing her down below I feel it should stop.
Ive tried walking in on them to catch him but her pjs are usually slipped on by then.

Sorry this is long. Im taking her to get dressed/loo as much as I can but have been ill a lot lately and bed bound.
Any advice appreciated. Thankyou

I agree with Imarriedafrog, Pag. Sorry that your sensitive and measured post was lost in the bickering.

BUT, why the focus on Quattro's job Knottyhair?
She could be a Corporate/Commercial Solicitor, or specialise in Personal Injury, any area of Law. She didn't bring up her job, that was someone else.

Trust me, even Family Solicitors don't have to be Boutros Boutros Ghalli in order to be successful, no more than anyone else in any profession does, caring or otherwise.

Scarlett, that is so difficult.
Actually talking about what happened and not feeling ashamed is oddly hard. We would never blame our kids but we feel guilty.

Christ Kerry, how awful for you!

When I finally told in my 20s my family just acted as if i never said anything. They just completely ignored it and acted as if it hadn't happened. It was weird. Oh except my duster who wrote to me telling me I had upset them and deserved an unhappy life

I think it is too much for people to deal with . Brian Moore write about keeping quiet in his latest book. Very interesting read.

I said nothing for years. I blather on now because I think there are deep seated and fundamental misunderstandings about abuse which allow it to continue.

has the op been back?

Pag, I hear you and I really feel like you are talking sense.

There seems to be a big consensus on the thread that the OP should talk to someone in RL, talk to a HV, GP etc. The OP seems sensible and not about to make any rash decisions.

We all know where the boundaries are when it comes to affection with our kids are. I just bathed my DS, I kissed his tummy, his toes, I squeezed his bum when I put on his PJs. I would never ever touch his willy etc except , to wipe away the poop. This is ordinary, average interaction.

Something is not right in the household, the mum is acting on that. That's good. That is the right thing to do. I work in education and have had plenty of child protection training and the big theme the trainers keep coming back to and repeating is if something doesn't feel right and you have sense about something...monitor it, your brain is thin slicing what is going on. anytone pon here read blink ny malcolm gladwell?

Kerry I am so sorry that is so sad. Pag your post really strikes a cord with me. I know my family would be the same, actually I have dropped so many hints over the years I think they either think I just hate him or they know and don't want to agknowledge.

But to think back I came back like a typical victim of abuse from that holiday. They were so blind. Personality changed - totally quiet, introverted and very very angry. My mum has always been someone who champions the rights of children and bangs on about pedos. Shame she didn't realise what was happening under her nose by this nice man from a lovely family.

Sorry for the total hijack but it has struck a nerve with me.

Stirling I just wanted to tell you that I strongly believe you are doing the right and brave thing voicing your concerns and seeking professional advice on dealing with them, whatever the consequences. You sound like a very good mother. You are putting your dd's safety first at all costs.

As some survivors on here have described (and I have seen first hand) some mothers of survivors allow their DC to remain at risk - often by ignoring signs, hints, suspicians and instincts because they cannot bear to face the abhorrent possibility of a loved one being an abuser (among other reasons). You will never be one of these mothers, and I have met people in this position who can barely live with the guilt. At worst you will be a mother who was overly mindful of potentially inappropriate behaviour by her husband and risked her marriage to stop it.

I sincerely hope that your dd is not at risk from your DH, and that the (IMO) inappropriate behaviour you describe is not a sign of/or precursor to sexual abuse. I hope your DH can understand and modify his behaviour and that your relationship can survive this if that is what you want. I hope your DH will see you are just being a good mother by raising this and I really hope he goes on to have a healthy and loving relationship with you and your DC. But, whatever the outcome, I think you should be proud of your strength in facing your suspicians head on to keep your dd safe.

Gosh. Just tried to read through all the new pages since I logged off last night.
Thankyou for all the replies - I understand the divide in opinions, the trouble is this is exactly how I feel in my head so after reading all 12 pages I remain confused.

I've been totally deflated today, and whoever said that the advice given by stopitnow was unhelpful in that Im now constantly on the watch was right. It hardly feels like a solution. And to what extent is it practical? I needed to see my GP for my asthma this evening, had to leave DH with the kids, and while I was out she needed a wee and poo. ???

I do have a plan of action. Someone here suggested emailing NSPCC instead. I'll do that tomorrow. Someone also gave me a link to kidscape and some useful no's there, Im thinking of calling Parentline to see what they say on this. And I am going to install a camera even though I don't like the idea of it what else can I do? Given that I am not prepared to break up our otherwise happy family life over something I suspect but have not seen.
I will be 110% vigilant. I will protect my daughter and not ignore this issue.

To everyone who replied saying that I should go by my gut instinct, I'd just like to point out that Im not sure how clear I made it in my original post but my gut instinct is that he loves her very much and is fascinated but Im NOT SURE at all what he is doing upstairs when he is changing her and she is giggling 'no stop it!'. It could be tickling of the stomach for all I know, but when combined with other things Ive mentioned I became suspicious.

He has attempted to be kind to me today but Im still fuming and finding it impossible to speak to him. The 'allegations' need investigating/ more professional advice, but the head flicking is what it is. A form of his violence and yes he has done it once or twice before.

Someone asked how is is sexually - normal I would say. Gentle.
A brilliant dad in all other respects. Very playful, very affectionate (is a very tactile person - touches his friends too), spends all of his spare time with us. He and I dont have the best marriage. Numerous problems - we have good and bad times.

Thankyou for all of your posts everyone.

Pagwatch ( you may know me but under another name) Are you at peace with your family now? Imarriedafrog and your sister - has she forgiven those who did not act????

Also wanted to say that to those who came forward with their own experiences here - I'm sorry you've been through what you have. This won't go ignored.

Good luck stirling I think you are doing the right thing by contacting other organisations too.

Stirling - good luck and I really hope its nothing sinister.

But do think carefully about staying with someone who seems to think flicking you on the head is ok - as you know it is very much not OK.

Pagwatch and Kerry - very for what you've been through. I always enjoy both of your posts and you are amazingly strong women in my opinion

Haven't read all 12 pages so not sure if this has already been suggested.

What about hiring surveillance equipment? There are companies out there who will even set up covert equipment, so its hidden.

That way you can find out what is going on and either leave him or set your mind to rest.

I personally can't blame your husband for reacting negatively when you confronted him, I think anyone who was innocent and accused of something so horrible would do the same! (assuming that he was innocent of course)

It's realy hard to tell what is going on from what you say as it could be taken either way really. I think the thing that does spring to mind is when you say that you don't know what is happening upstairs when he is changing her. I always know what is going on when my DH is changing our DC as I can just tell as I see them together all the time and understand the sort of relationship they have. Also my DH is very open about what they get up to. Sometimes I will ask what they were doing and he will tell me and it's usually something funny so we'll laugh about it. The fact that you have no idea what is happening when you are not there makes me wonder if he is secretive in that way?

Also do you never go as well when it is time to get her changed. I often go and just watch because I love seeing them together and the way they interact.

I don't mean to sound like I think I do it all brilliant or anything like that. It just seems that there is a gap in the family unit, a closeness and an understanding of all the relationships.

Don't know if this is making any sense, sorry!

Stirling - so glad you came back and obviously 12 pages of differing opinions and experiences has provided alot of confusion for you amongst other things. I hope some of it helped.

I sincerely hope your mind is soon put at rest.

To those who shared their terrible experiences in the hope of helping someone else, you all show an amazing strength and I hope all your lives are one million times better now.

Best of luck Stirling, please keep posting, there are plenty of people here supporting you. It's very relieving to hear that you won't ignore the issue.

Kerry and pagwatch - I'm really sorry for what you've both been through. I think you're both extremely brave for sharing your stories.

atirling, glad you came back,

but if i felt the need to buy a hidden camera to watch what my DH was doing, or he had to buy one to watch me (i have just asked him) i think that would signal the end of our marriage. no trust = no nothing.

i was abused as a child. i have posted on this before and dont really feel the need to go through it all again here, but i have a very very strong sense of instinct which has served me so well in my adult hood,

i am so glad you are not going to ignore your feelings, glad for you children.

good luck.

I think you're doing the right thing actually because I think you need to know either way. The absolute worst thing would be for you to split up and for him to then have unsupervised contact, which is what would happen unless you have proof. You would then be desperately worried and be almost powerless do anything about it.

Stirling - how about the questions I asked about he interacts with your DS? Is there a big difference?

Hi again Stirling,

I don't know if this thread and its conflicting arguments will have helped or hindered you really? Getting people's opinions is always good but the subject matter is obviously a raw and emotional one which has evoked strong opinion, some of which I do find unhelpful to you.

I am a little concerned that you are still after 'evidence' of abuse in terms of setting up a camera - do you really want to watch films night after night in the 'hope' you discover some 'evidence' - and then to watch the abuse!! The image will live with you forever believe me! And how long do you keep recording? One week, two, a month, a year?

Please don't wait for that kind of evidence. It will be damaging for your whole family and cause a whole heap of other difficulties.

It is unlikely to dispell your fears as you'll start other suspicions, (ie he's not doing it now as I've challenged him, he's doing it in a different room now, away from the house etc)

For your happy family to continue you need to have a basic level of trust - you can't even trust him alone with your children even in another room. You can't keep living like this as it won't be good for any of you.

But no organisation or agency will tell you what to do - they will offer you advice only (some well meaning but impractical, some not understanding your situation).

Seeking advice from social services is not the same as them 'getting involved' = social workers also work for NSPCC and Barnados amongst others, how about requesting to speak to them - but I would try and do it IRL as its much more constructive than over the phone. If you get on well with a health professional or school teacher then talk to them, its easier with someone you know and trust.

However, I feel the more important issue at this stage is getting your relationship with your DH back on track - re-establish that trust. Find time together where you will be uninterrupted but is private enough to talk - maybe ship the children to your family for the night and cook a meal for him then get everything out in the open - what is upsetting you, etc. Often small problems become huge ones when left to dwell. But DON'T do this if you even consider he may get aggressive - its fine for him to be angry or upset but if you think it will result in a physical response then you need help with this.

I would suggest maybe go to relate - in these sessions talk about your concerns re this thread, how you cannot carry on living like this, have even considered CCTV as an option (obviously over more than one session) having someone who will be mediate between you will be helpful. Relate also offer individual sessions which may help you talk through your concerns and the impact it is having on you as a family. It may help you come to a decision about the way forward.

That said, abusers are very good at grooming everyone, including partners and even professionals. If you're true gut instinct is telling you that you cannot trust him round your children then you may be unable to overcome this - but it does not appear you are saying this?

I really do hope this nightmare doesn't last long and you work things out. Like lots of others on this thread my thoughts are with you.

Zoe
X

Hi,
I think I would be a bit worried too, I think I would put a camera in the room to find out. I'm sorry but it's the only way to find out and I would have to know, it could be nothing but if it's not you will want to know now before it gets any later. Its an awfulthing to do but it's the only way to find out the truth. Good luck x

What an awful situation :(

You need to speak to someone in real life. You know this and that alone should tell you that your concerns are very real.

The finger flicking is simply outrageous and a very extreme reaction, he's done this before? Not acceptable behaviour in any circumstances.

xxx

Stirling - I don't have any advice for you but I would probably set up a camera too - you have to know, to have more to go on before tearing up the family. Anyway, my thoughts are with you in this horrible situation.

Good luck stirling

There was some query about the statistics on child abuse - which I sourced from the NSPCC here which state that 1% of children are sexually abused by a parent or carer.

There are no details as to how that statistic is collated. On that basis alone it should be doubted. The point of relating DH's experience was so that no-one should mistake this for serious evidence, although I went with the statistic in any event. Faute de mieux, really.

Oh and snowy, why don't you read my posts before weighing in?