is DH touching dd inappropriately?

[stirling]

Hello,
this is difficult to post but i really need some opinions.
Will try to start from the beginning. When DD was born (now 3)my husband would always smile/laugh at her genitals and feel amazed that we have a girl. (already have a son aged 5). Ive seen him and his mother 'affectionately' pinching her nipples since she was a tiny baby and laughing.
DD is now 3 and Ive noticed that whenever DD needs clothes changed either for bedtime or morning, DH quickly whisks her upstairs(before I get to stand up) and then I hear her squealing and laughing 'no stop it!' (she is not distressed in anyway).

He also always wants to take her to wee (she is fully potty trained but needs help with clothes/wiping) and on a few occasions she has been wet and he's needed to change her. When Ive confronted him and asked him how she got wet, he says she lifts her bottom up to show how she wees..Im shocked because she has NEVER done this with me, nor do I think she could come up with the idea of showing how she wees.

He is always squeezing her bum -not such a crime but its very often.
My gut feeling is that he is fascinated by her and finds her very cute, my concern is him touching her when changing her clothes.

I confronted him today in totally the wrong way. I said that I know he finds her cute but that he should maybe not touch her genitals now that she is no longer a baby. He exploded with rage. He said he only tickles her (when undressed) and then he flicked me on my forehead and stormed off :(

I realise I took a huge risk and have probably jeapordised my marriage but at the same time if he is stroking/tickling/kissing her down below I feel it should stop.
Ive tried walking in on them to catch him but her pjs are usually slipped on by then.

Sorry this is long. Im taking her to get dressed/loo as much as I can but have been ill a lot lately and bed bound.
Any advice appreciated. Thankyou

I'm afraid I don't have any real advice (because, thank God, I don't have practical experience in this area), but reading the OP was very uncomfortable and I think you are right to have some concerns. What you do from here, and where things go, will take some very serious contemplation. But the fact that you have even considered the scenario, stirling, is enough for me to have concern for you and DD.

In response to KerryMumblesBahHumBug - I think the wording used by JaquelinehydeAllThePresents was not clear but I do understand what she is saying - that kissing, cuddling and adoring your children is perfectly natural. We all have different values and beliefs from our own upbringings and experiences. EG: For some families it is perfectly acceptable to walk round naked in front of each other throughout their lives. for others it is not acceptable. It doesn't make one right and one wrong. It only becomes 'wrong' when you are intending to hurt or abuse someone else.

VicarInaTuTu - I totally agree this statement raises danger signals especially as it implies that she thinks something is happening for her to 'catch them' however this suspicion and discomfort may come from her own experiences or mistrust. If she does have enough reason or concern to suspect this then obviously it is important for her to talk to a professional and seek advice as a matter of urgency. The whole content of her message is on her own feelings rather than any concrete evidence and I suspect there is a lot of information she has kept back, whihc is her perogative. That said a mothers intuition and gut feelings should never be dismissed.

Stirling - none of us are judging you - you have taken an important first step in addressing your concerns, now take the next step and talk to a professional in confidence. It can't be worse than sitting and thinking the worst all the time and living on eggshells.

There is also a DS aged 5 - is your DH his father too? Was he around when DS was a baby? Because I've understood that he was but that him and MIL only chose to tweak DD's nipples - surely a baby's nipples, male or female are the same so why would they only pick on the girl?

Did he help DS with toilet stuff and dressing too? Does he take an equal interest in DS in other ways?

I'm also understanding that he only tickles DD in private when she is undressed??

As for flicking you on the forehead - has he ever been violent before?

I reiterate that there is no evidence of abuse.

I've registered that the OP has suspicions. So what might be the causes of those suspicions? It could be that the OP's DH is abusive. It could be that his behaviour boundaries are unusual (though I stress that nothing that has been described sounds unusual to me). Or it could be that the OP is a bit nuts.

The respondents have majored on the first two possibilities. The "tell him to leave brigade" are going way over the top IMO. If the OP is going a bit nuts, then the OP's DH leaving is possibly the worst thing for the children.

Exactly quattrocento, this is what I was trying to get at.

shineon i don't mean to make you sad and i don't mean to question kerry's experiences or reactions to them. I was reacting to her post to jac which ended 'kiss up and down the neck? and god knows what else'. I spent some of last night nuzzling and kissing my 8 week old son's neck and i got cross reading that. In the cold light of day i am more cross that some children's experiences have not been so innocent. x

Hi Stirling. I worked for many years with sexual offenders, and with men convicted of domestic violence offences, and your original post rang massive alarm bells. This must be so overwhelming for you, and you've already been offered some brilliant advice. I hope you have someone in RL who you can confide in. I would say that your DH's behaviour with your DD is very worrying and his reaction to you equally so. Flicking your forehead is not in any way a restrained reaction as suggested by a previous poster, but is violent, painful, humiliating and belittling. Please please take the good advice you have been given, and contact NSPCC or your health visitor or both. Stop It Now have not treated your situation with the severity it deserves IMO. Stay strong, and do the right thing for your children.

And quattrocento, I note from your profile that you work in the legal world, which frankly is very worrying given your point of view. Please stirling, ignore advice of this sort.

OP - by virtue of the fact that these are your instincts go with them. The fact that innappropriate behaviour even crossed your mind proves this has to be investigated further.

Considering the amount of ways there are to play with and entertain and love and just generally squish a gorgeous baby why do the lower genitals (chuff?!!) OR nipples EVER have to come into it?

Adore your child in a million and one ways but leave their personal areas alone.

When the children of 'chuff' ticklers and nipple pressers go to school and emulate this behaviour you will end up with a whole world of trouble and a very sad, innocent, totally confused child.

It could all be very innocent. I would not jump to conclusions, but maybe say that you are uncomfortable with him bathing her / taking her to the loo and do that yourself.

I am inclined to believe that if he was a child molester, he would not be as affectionate towards her in front of you, it would be more furtive.

I could be wrong, but tread very carefully. And please don't involve Social Services unless you absolutely have to.

Whats really worrying is the amount of posters who base their judgement of the situation on a few posts on an Internet forum, with absolutely no background information.

I love kissing my babies necks, that wee bit under their jaw always gets them giggling.
I also beep nipples on occasion ( press and make a beep noise), I "honk" noses and "eat" toes and fingers.
Oh and you better call social services as I pretend I am going to bite their bums when they are going upstairs in front off me.

I don't think the forehead flicking and the touching are separate issues. If (and only if) your partner is touching your daughter inappropriately, it shows a lack of respect, intentionally or not, for her boundaries. In the same way that forehead flicking overtly and intentionally demonstrates a lack of respect for you.

It sounds like the behaviour of a controlling person and I strongly suspect he does other things which are controlling but you may or may not have noticed. This link might be useful- some of the behaviours probably happen in many OK relationships but if there are a lot it might just open your perspective and give you other reasons to look at his behaviour and consider whether it can be tackled or whether you and your daughter should put up with it:
www.drirene.com/control.htm

You did not 'accuse him of child abuse' as some posters have said, it sounds like you tried to tactfully advise him his touching was no longer appropriate as she gets older. The fact you blame yourself for his aggressive reaction is I think a classic abusive relationship reaction.

Well done for taking the steps you have so far, and so quickly. Your partner may well not be doing anything wrong intentionally but if he can't show willingness to reflect on his behaviour and your concerns then you will need to take control.

You've all gone quite mad.

Nowhere has the OP indicated that she has seen or witnessed any inappropriate touching. There has been no 'chuff-tickling' that she has seen.

The OP has suspected inappropriate touching. She has NOT SEEN ANY INAPPROPRIATE TOUCHING.

And yes, I work in the legal world. So I work on EVIDENCE, on what has been seen, and confirmed and can be attested to.

At the moment what I personally am witnessing is a witch hunt against a man for self-confessedly tickling his daughter, taking her to the toilet, changing her, tweaking her baby nipples in the presence of his mother, and kissing her.

Of course there might be something sinister going on. But you've no evidence at all that it has.

Absolutely agree, Quattrocento.

i dont think small vulnerable children show any evidence of abuse.....untill its too late and its done!! would you prefer that?? THEN the collection of evidence can commence and someone punished!???

... and as for those who feel that the 'head flicking' incident is worthy of an assault charge, can we just remember that the OP (rightly or wrongly) practically accused her DH of abusing their daughter.

True Kerry, but then the OP said that the MIL also did this. Perhaps the DH has grown up believing it to be a normal (non-sexual) gesture of affection?

Pinching a baby's nipples is entirely inappropriate and it worries me that there are people on this thread that think that's acceptable.